I was working for a big bank, facing moral harassment almost every day from a shitty manager. The thing with moral harassment is it don't happen out of nothing, it is gradual. The manager was testing the waters, every day making the insult a bit harder than the day before. One day he actually cursed me in a meeting with 14 other people and I decided I had enough. Reported him to HR and quit. After that I was working on a game, that I was going to try to make a living out of. I was decided not to go back to work for a while. Then, on HN I saw those to topics - who wants to be hired and who is hiring. I selected 6 openings that seems interesting to me and send an email. 4 wrote me back. 3 gave me a coding challenge. 1 Hired me. Been working with them for almost 3 years now. Great company. Really nice people.
There was another post in this thread that basically said, “toughen up buttercup” that I can no longer find. While I agree that this is a dickish thing to say, I can’t help but somewhat agree with the sentiment that tech workers are perhaps a little bit better off than the average person and don’t have a lot of perspective here about how bad it can get. Not saying that it’s ok, rather that when you can easily find another job it’s pretty easy to take a principled stand.
I flew for a living for a long time and was verbally harassed at many jobs by a superior. I remember talking on the radio once during a checkride - “do you have shit in your mouth? Because you sound like it.”
He was just being an asshole to rile me up, but it remains an asshole thing to say, and you have to deal with it because he literally holds your career in his hands. Personally, in that moment I vowed I’d never do that to anyone - but it doesn’t mean it isn’t widespread and it doesn’t mean quitting was an option.
Other times in my career I was expressedly told violate regulations or do legal but wildly unsafe things; because I had massive student loan debt at the time (I paid all that shit off eventually greatest feeling in the world), rent to pay, I had to make a lot of compromises I’m not proud of retrospectively because I did not want to be homeless or laid off looking for a flying job in 2009.
To act as though everyone can quit if their ego gets bruised by some jackass is the height of privilege. Many many other careers do not have that option. Not saying it is right in the least, but I feel a lot of people would really benefit from an understanding that how principled a person can be often practically changed by exterior circumstances.
That’s the thing I want people to take away from all this - a sort of “dialectical materialism” sort of view - that being able to quit without worse consequences than a bruised ego is unto itself a sort of prosperity many many people do not have.
I hear you, being able to leave a job and quickly find a new one is a great thing to have in this field, and it helps in having a great sense of job security.
The issue isn't that these jobs pay well and are great to work in so we should deal with any bs that flys. It's that people don't deserve to be harrassed, regardless of how "good" their work is.
If you make 2 million a year as an investment banker, you don't deserve to be unfairly humiliated at your job more than any part time fast food worker.
No but at least to me that is the implication. And I think it’s fantastic if you can, but a lot of times on here I see people who are completely out of touch with the material reality people live in.
Beyond that, there is a certain frailty to all this stuff too, nobody deserves to be treated poorly, but the inability to bounce back from that is not great either
Because other people have to basically behave like wage slaves, doesn't mean that is fine and programmers should just shut up and withstand abuse.
This is the same argument over and over that IT has it too good and maybe when there are layoffs or abuse scandals, some people rejoice in knowing they too are suffering like others. Like it's deserved.
It isn’t deserved, but also, you do have to be able to withstand some abuse in this life.
Not saying I agree with it, nor am I saying it should remain this way? But having the fortitude to tough out some shit is a valuable skill. Not saying that OP doesn’t, but also, a lot of people don’t.
> I remember talking on the radio once during a checkride - “do you have shit in your mouth? Because you sound like it.”
Reading this already sets me off. Why the FUCK do people have uninstigated belligerence at work and to the general at large? What is their problem?
Why can't a simple, "Can you speak louder? I can't hear you." suffice? I'm so sick of people not having basic decency. This kind of person needs to fuck off.
It wasn’t even that, lol, he just didn’t like how I sounded - it wasn’t even improper phraseology or anything he just didn’t like it.
Regardless, this sort of thing is not uncommon - it’s not right, but learning how to survive and withstand things that aren’t right so you can accomplish the things you want to accomplish is valuable. I actually - naively, thought academia would be different after a decade in aviation, hilariously academia was far more asshole-ish as a matter of percentage.
I had a very good advisor and instructors so I was spared most of the obnoxiousness, but I did see some sociopathic behavior. It’s life - between 10 and 20 percent of people are going to fucking suck.
"Toughen up buttercup" works fine when there is labor surplus. But during labor constraint the workers have all the cards. If it costs $30k to hire a new employee like it does in tech, you better treat them nicer than something like Burger King.
This is my first time hearing of 'moral harassment'. Is that an actual phrase or is English not your native language? Reading the rest of your comment it seems the manager was just a bully, but please elaborate if that understanding is incorrect!
> They would be permanently traumatized by the level of aggression in other jobs
Started working when I was 15. First in a printing company, later on factory floor. Lots and lots of funny inappropriate jokes. Not even once insulted by a superior or a colleague.
> privileged to be able to walk away
Some people will take abuse for money, I don't.
> delicate snowflakes
Bully me in an environment where it's OK for me to punch you in the face and find out how much of a snowflake I really am
I can very much relate to your situation but unfortunately not sure what to do.
I’m doing some contract work on the side. Every day I’m like if this guy harasses me again I’m going to put my notice in go work for less money but unfortunately I’m not even sure what decision should I take since the job is high paying but on the hand the contract work is with the startup and pays less money compared to what I make
I wish economy was better so I could leave my toxic job.
I like that you curated your search, hiring would be in such a better place if everyone did that. Anymore, every single opening gets spammed thousands of resumes with absolutely no skill or history relevant to the company. Makes it harder for the hiring side and people like yourself.
To be honest it took me about 6 hours to go through all the openings, selecting the ones I was interested in, writing a custom email and adapting my resumee to fit that particular opening. It was actually work.
> I selected 6 openings that seems interesting to me and send an email. 4 wrote me back. 3 gave me a coding challenge. 1 Hired me. Been working with them for almost 3 years now.
2021. Different time, different hiring attitudes. A shame 2024 is no longer an employee's market.
