One reason for this is the primacy of the workplace/school, to the total exclusion of any third place. If you don't have a job or are harassed out of your school, what does one do when not working? Japan does not have great ready-made answers to this question, for many people. (It seems like a silly question, but after six years here, I honestly struggled with it after leaving the day job. Where should one be at 3 PM on a Thursday? Is it allowed for me to just go to the gym? Shouldn't I just stay home a few more hours so that the lady behind the counter will assume I am coming in after getting home from work early at 8 or so?)
There exist people with similar levels of social isolation who nonetheless go to work every day. They are occasionally written about in reports of him hikikomori, which strikes at least some people as odd, since "I go to a place where nobody cares about me and spend my entire day there" is not exactly out of the mainstream of Japanese experience.
I'm married into a South Korean family, and from my observation Korean society has less intense version of Japan's social collective mood (IIR it's written as '情' in both countries)
It's really difficult to read about this kind of thing and maintain an appropriate feeling of cultural relativism without wanting go "oh Japan" or in my case "oh Korea". There's been many times with my family and friends a seemingly intractable situation will come up that a Westerner would simply resolve with a bit of a Western Rock'n'Roll "well fuck 'em" attitude and get on with life. As a Westerner, I find it incredibly frustrating at times. But obviously it's more complicated then that and when I try to see things through my family and friend's cultural lens it all makes a kind of sense.
On the flip side, I think lots of Western behavior is explained by an insatiable desire for group membership -- despite social expectations of individuality (especially for Americans).
People do all kinds of weird behaviors, bizarre clique joinerisms like wearing crazy fashions, or obsess over the moment they turn old enough to join the Marines or take on group-specific behavior patterns, and just like with 情 this mood and desire seems indescribable to them (I don't know of any satisfactory word in English for it). But you can go to any public place and look at groups of people who all dress, act and try to be as "the same" as possible as their clique-mates.
And then you end up with the strangest of all joiner group identities, the ones made up of "individuals" who strive obsessively to be "individuals" just exactly like all the rest of their clique-mates. Hipsterism seems to be a particularly well known variant of this, but there are others.
I suspect a similar psychological mechanism is at play, but just on opposite ends of the spectrum.
YMMV, but having seen both the Japanese and Korean sides of the coin, I'd generalize Korea as being more "intense" on all counts: studying even harder, working even longer, endurance being prized even more as a virtue. Although I think both societies are slowly evolving out of this, Japan is just a bit further down the path.
But yes, the let's-all-be-individuals-together cliques are still going strong. Japanese Halloween illustrates this nicely: virtually everybody who dresses up does so in matching groups.
I don't disagree at all with Koreans doing things in a particularly intense way. Based on my readings of ancient to modern Korean history it seems to definitely be a fairly modern cultural trait (at least not much older than the occupation).
However, Japan seems to have a very intense cultural relationship with this particular mood. I can't really think of a single k-drama that will spend half the episode with a character fretting about how they may be threatening the social harmony of their group, but I could probably pick a j-drama, anime or manga that does at random. It seems to be an issue Japanese people spend an extraordinary amount of time contemplating, expressing, acting upon, reacting to, watching, evaluating, teaching and thinking about.
It can make consumption of some Japanese media quite interminable for people who don't care.
Koreans definitely study like crazy - probably more than any other country in the world and much more than they should. Many students come home from school only to spend the entire afternoon + evening at cram school in order to "prepare for their future" - which ironically will end up being an average pay desk job.
They definitely work long hours as well and have ridiculously high suicide rates - higher than Japan's and third highest in the world.
> "Then you end up with the strangest of all joiner group identities, the ones made up of "individuals" who strive obsessively to be "individuals" just exactly like all the rest of their clique-mates.
I think you just described the goth scene perfectly :) Though at least some of the goths are hyper aware of it & treat their "I'm like so different" goth uniform as a joke.
On a related note, going to a goth nightclub regularly is one of the best things I ever did. Being around people who are all similarly socially anxious & tending towards introvert/recluse (and with a shared interest in metal / synthpop) helped us all to become dramatically more social creatures.
Weirdly, as an extrovert who had serious social anxiety as a teen, I find that hanging out with people who are still socially awkward and introverted brings me right back to the anxiety I conquered years ago. I think the key factor now is that as an extrovert I give out a lot of social energy and so when I don't receive it back in turn I think I've fucked up or aren't entertaining people and thus it makes me briefly quite self conscious.
Most of that is just culture blindness. Saying all Goth’s look alike is basically saying that all opera’s sound alike.
Objectively clowns costumes have a lot more verity than suits. However, for someone that knows suits they can be rather expressive. That same person might group a clown as 'other' and not bother to parse it past, wig, face paint, and bright clothing.
Hikikomori are also well "networked" online and play the game of who is authentic and who is fake. Perhaps it is as popular as it is because it has become an identity.
I have read a fan translation + to-fiction conversion of a japanese manga about a hikki who died saving other people, ended up in a fantasy world and became successful. The sub-culture is definitely going strong and international.
Strolling in the konbini or donki and figuring out what I could possibly find that could satiate this vague craving for something that I don't know what it is also works. You never know what you end up, buying, if anything. More often than not something dense in calories and/or containing caffeine or alcohol. Oh consumerism.
When I graduated from college, I worked my entire time there and was kind of over stressed/exhausted, so I took a sabatic year. I spent I guess 6 months browsing the web, reading about compilers, and watching video lectures, I just spent time with my mom. My dad started questioning me, but both were very supportive.
After about 6 months, I started to gain weight, so I decided to join a Gym. A pal offered me classes on a local university and things started to move on.
I was very depressed, sad, I didn't want to do anything, literally, I just wanted to sleep. At the end, I took about 16 months in rehabilitation, I grew frustrated of literally doing nothing, and started to work again, first at the family company as a hobby, then as general manager, it really helped me that I've been an entrepeneour since my 16's, and well. things just keeps going.
I really where on a different position than all of this persons, but I acknowledge it's very hard to stand on your feet after a break down. Is like you loss the will to live and you start giving a fuck about everything, friends, family, money, everything.
Returning to the sabatic year. the second part of that sabatic year, was one of the happiest moments on my life, I got a Girlfriend (Denisse), I traveled not a lot, but enough, wasted all the money I've saved from the company I had on college (I developed webpages), but I got some great friends, they were awesome people and I laughed and enjoyed life like never before.
Straightforward to the present time. last year suddenly I felt like the loneliest person on earth, I've been working so hard the last 6 years, that again I didn't had friends at all, I wake up, work, gym, bed. In that order, now I'm in my 30's, still single, I buyed a flat, buyed fourniture, but at the end, I still live with my parents, I just can't handle being alone there. and throught I can say I'm quite succesful, being succesful is not actually a requisite to make friends, a requisite to being friends is being happy, and was again stressed but now I was kind of angry with life too.
I changed gym (I used to go to a sports club rather exclusive, where I couldn't meet new people), joined graduate school, actually I'm studying two master degrees right now, one in applied statistics, and another one in business planification. I also joined new groups in order to meet new people. Things are changing now. Now I've friends againg to hang out on weekends. But damn, I have to make assessments every now and then about my life, and take corrective actions because if I just keep going, it seems that the path always takes me to a depressive life, maybe is my personality, maybe I isolate when I take a challenge (as a programmer, I like to program in isolation, so when I become general manager of the family company, I isolated myself until I took the company to profit again). Nevertheless, the only thing I take for sure is: Damn, life is difficult.
It's tough too because social pressures and norms are much stricter in Japan than elsewhere. This contributes to both the stings of social alienation, and the unwillingness of parents to kick their kids out of the nest.
I might be way off, but I tend to view this from an economic perspective in that these young (and not so young) shut-ins, in a pragmatic sense, don't need to work to survive. Their parents are able to provide for them all the basic needs for life - mostly shelter and food. It is a relatively small marginal expense to the parents who usually already have fair incomes. Until the parents pass away, which may take some time with Japan's famously long lifespans, most of these shut-ins will probably be alright.
Another aspect I find interesting is that the article is written mostly from an extrovert's perspective on culture. For an introvert, it seems like paradise to be a shut-in. I get fed, cared for, and I can focus on my internal life and interests, with no need to deal with others and all the problems they bring. As an introvert focused on myself and my own well-being, there seems nothing wrong with being a shut-in. Of course there are macro-economic arguments against it, but from a micro-economic point of view where I only care about my own needs, I would be satisfied with a shut-in life.
One doctor in the article states that the diagnosis criteria ought to include whether or not the shut-in is unhappy with the situation. A happy hermit would not be a hikikomori in his eyes.
That said, I'm an introvert myself as well. Spending time with others in a social setting drains me mentally, and I prefer being alone or with my SO. But if I never left the house for months or years, it would be quite depressing for me.
I think the issue goes beyond people who simply don't like spending time with others. People are suffering.
I'm extremely introvert and – as a student, not a neet! – I've lived the past months in a manner similar to that described by the article. I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.
> I think no shut-in nor introvert gets satisfaction from such behaviour.
It's amazing how you're acutely aware to how every introvert feels about this, when did you manage to contact them all and convince them to respond to such a question? Otherwise, how can you make such an absolute assertion?
You missed the "I think" part. I was genuinely sharing my assumptions and experiences. OF COURSE I can't speak for all introverts I don't know, but your post is forcing me to highlight such obviousness.
I did see the "I think" part, but I also saw "no introvert" which was taking an absolute stance, regardless of it being your opinion or not.
You could have used "some", "most", "many", "a sizable portion", etc, but you took an absolute term rather than a malleable term. It's not my fault you're unclear in your communication.
I apologize for the--know it all--you are responding to. The one thing that really irritates me about Americans(including myself at one time) is we think we know, or have the the answers to Everything! I can kind of stomach it when it comes to our culture, but it become nauseous when we comment on other, usually better cultures.
You shouldn't generalize people (doing it by race is called racism; doing it by country has no fancy name that I know of but it's wrong all the same), or refer to some cultures as "better" than others.
That's simply not true, according to the definition of race it requires sharing a biologically identifiable connection with other people. An Asian man and a Native American could be born in the same place and raised in the same family but would not share the same race. Discrimination on the basis of country is a separate thing which I don't think has a specific term. Wasn't able to find one with a quick Google at least.
One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day). Even just being in an environment (yes, open workspace) with some kind of energy/noise is good for someone who is so inwardly focused they tend to not need headphones in such an environment.
As someone who has done mini shut-ins of almost double-digit days at a time (with corresponding spike in News.YC activity), I believe that once you get off a regular schedule it can be hard to recover. Having some facsimile or proxy of human communication, be it Facebook or people 'liking' your News.YC submissions (or even worse comments), is like empty fast food calories for social attention - but still nourishing at some basic level.
Like they say for people who may be divorced, keeping busy with some project or activity is a smoke screen for feeling lonely. Ultimately, the smoke may clear and you'll feel intense spurts of sadness. Yet - your friends and acquaintances won't know because they think you're always doing interesting things with different circles of people. People tend to see what they want to see.
I left my job to make video games, mostly solo. I'm financially able to pursue this lifestyle for the foreseeable future.
> One of the nice things about having a 9-5ish job is that I have to go into the office on a regular basis (not necessarily every day).
You hit the nail on the head for me. What I miss most from a normal job isn't money or status, but simply being around other people. I never once thought that I would have felt this way.
I'll be joining a coworking space when money permits, to be sure.
Your HN profile says you are in the Bay Area. If Oakland is within reach, we run a free coworking session every Tuesday afternoon. It is primarily social in nature(with occasional "everybody is busy" days). [0]
More generally, I try to make my daily routine get me out of the house before I turn on the computer. That is, either I go out of the house and go to the gym, then work when I come back, or I go out of the house and sit down at a coffeeshop and work for two-to-four hours, then go to the gym, then come back. Changing locale tends to matter a lot to me, even if I'm not actually social while I'm out.
This is of interest to me as a member of my family, here on the U.S. (totally non Japanese) fits the syndrome quite closely.
As far as I can tell, a combination of social anxiety, depression, pressure, laziness and lack of pressure (enabling behavior from his parents) has led him to not work in over 20 years and live with his parents, socializing online but showing no interest/ability in socializing with people in person... Or doing any productive work.
As time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to join society - my relative now is almost 40 but has very little experience in the 'real' world. He has no experience doing things like buying a car, negotiating a mortgage or lease, applying for a job, working at a job, maintaining a household in general, sustaining or building a mature romantic relationship, or any of the other skills he should have learned in his twenties. It's harder to be a 40 year old 18 year old than an 18 year old one.
I think we'll see more cases like this, but also we'll see technology providing people with new ways of functioning.
I think a lot of it is about inertia and always choosing the easier path. If your parents enable you to live without having to work, for a lot of people the ease overrides the benefits of work (independence, sense of worth, etc).
Down the track, more and more socialising will be digital, more shopping will be online and so on. Some people will exist publicly only as avatars bearing little resemblance to their physical selves.
So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around. Also problem is not just depression, but shame and lack of alternatives. And hikomori also affects women at large scale.
Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives.
But with internet everyone can see that ordinary western people live happy lives, without working themselves to death. I bet most hikimori just want to live western way. Go to nice college, have a few parties, eventually graduate and work 9-5 job. This is simply not an option in Japan, with its elite schools and work culture.
'Saving those people' without providing better alternative is a nonsense. They are already on path they are most happy with. Shaming and dressing it as mental illness is not going to work.
Japan (and any Confucian culture) shames people who do not accept their traditional roles. Men are expected to work until they fall dead. Women are expected to take care of children (while optionally following career at the same time). This sort of works in closed system, where people do not really know about any alternatives.
You could look at it this way, I suppose, but it falls apart a bit when you consider that Japan's falling birthrate is at least partially a product of women tossing out their traditional roles. Yeah, that still leaves plenty of pressure on everyone, but it also sets a precedent, or at least enforces it.
But no, most Japanese -- hikikomori or not -- do not "just want to live western way." The things you mention about that are largely the opposite of Japanese experience and expectation, and to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.
>to suggest that kids who have never left the nation, let alone their own homes, have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away just by consuming their internet leavings seems more than a bit questionable.
I don't completely agree with the post you're replying to, however this part is not so far fetched to believe. It doesn't matter much how often these people go outside, the Japanese media and culture is vastly focused on Anime (at least for these shut-in people, which are one of their target audience) and there has been a constant cross-pollination between the western and eastern cultures. A lot of people are living a more western 'make-believe' culture in Japan that easily goes against their traditional set of moral values. The Japanese world is changing and we're still seeing this major cultural shift, which very well might be the cause of this, or at least a catalyst.
As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture. Obviously this is all my hypothesis, it might very well be unfound.
> As a matter of fact, these people are much more detached than the rest of the population and are much more susceptible to the western Internet cultural phenomenon to such an extent that it might be changing their point of view in such a way that they find themselves unable to fit into their actual culture.
Hmm. I think you might be right. I can tell for me, as an Asian guy that came to the US about 6-7 years ago, I feel much more liberated and less stressful being in the US than in where I came from. It is exactly the make-believe culture that I have been exposed to thanks to the Internet that made me feel detached from the culture over there. Whether it is the main reason that people shut in, I can't tell. It is probably not the case (and it doesn't have to be) for the majority of my fellow friends who came to the US to do post-graduate studies (I came for undergrad after being a drop out). They often find that it is more stressful to live in the US where they don't have friends and their familiar environment.
have somehow adopted the cultural norms of cultures thousands of miles away
Not adoption of new cultural norms, but corruption of existing cultural norms. I would offer parallel in how soviet block was disturbed by western culture. People were not so keen to build communism anymore,since they saw alternatives.
> So first, economy in Japan sucks, there is not that many jobs and houses to go around
There are plenty of jobs. In fact, there's a labor shortage. It's just that they're all shitty low-wage part time jobs with no security.
Housing only seems to be a problem in Tokyo. My wife and I have been looking at apartments and there are tons of all sizes that have been open for months. Nothing at all like back home in Sweden where there's a 3 year waiting list even outside of Stockholm.
Even in Tokyo the residential vacancy rates are still very high - more than 10% depending on the ward, and more than 15% when looking at the burbs. Manhattan vacancy rates, as a point of reference, are around 2%.
Prices apparently have been going up (attributed to the upcoming Olympics[1]), but honestly, when I walk around and look at rental prices, they seem pretty reasonable (damn cheap even) compared to say, Los Angeles (smaller units, but also cheaper per BR).
You're definitely right about the rest of the country though, and outside of Tokyo, population has already peaked and is decreasing...
For those w/ a burning interest in JP real estate, comprehensive market research is plentiful:
This is their version of the American corporate reported STEM shortage. There's such a high demand and so few qualified employees that IBM has to lay off thousands a year, every year, for decades.
If there's only "real jobs" for maybe 75% of the population, and 5% of the population decides to opt out leaving only 20% wanting real jobs and unable to get them, then its not really a problem other than freaking out westerners.
It sounds brutal because it is, but if you have too many people for your economy, then people opting out and negative birth rates is both a symptom and the only possible (very long term) cure, not the problem itself.
There really is a labor shortage in Japan and has been for a long time. Govt data shows as much as a 1.1:1 job:job seeker ratio. However, the parent poster is right in that a big part of the problem is that most of the jobs are crap (part-time/temp, terrible pay). I see job-wanted signs in every other restaurant/cafe I pass, but honestly, I don't think most people consider part-time $10/hr at Yoshinoya a long-term career path.
Still, you can take a look at the the search results for "japan labor shortage" yourself. https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+labor+shortage Everything from construction, shipbuilding, airlines, and other kinds of skilled work are also feeling the heat. (other big parts of the problem are lots of skilled labor retiring every year, and terrible hiring, labor and super-xenophobic immigration policies)
As opposed to some other commentator, I don't think the shut-ins are actually content with being isolated. It's more like a trap that you fell into and don't know how to climb out of. If society don't try to help them, (some of) them may fell down even further, to the point of suicide.
I think the Hikikomori phenomenon has been widespreading due to its popularization. imho being a shut-in has become a codified cry for help, a way to express a certain discomfort backed up by social proof. It has nothing to do with being lazy or spoiled, as implied in Japanese media like the Welcome to the NHK anime; I've yet to read the novel.
I only skimmed the article but are there hikikomoris who are happy with their life? I'm an introvert who is happily anti-social and wouldn't mind staying home all the time if I could afford it.
Happiness is very hard to define. Some people (most of them, actually) might be content with what they do, it doesn't mean that they are intrinsically happy about it. I've spent my fair share of time in isolation and I have to say that I've always felt happy about my lifestyle until I realized how much I missed my friends and family or even just going outside. I only realized this after the fact, not during. The problem is that your perspective of the world around you is warped and can easily lead you into thinking you are happy with what you have, simply because you are too afraid to go out and experience what you're missing so you just start believing this is what you want.
For some people, it might be true, though. Regardless of this fact, this is a very unhealthy and unsustainable lifestyle which should be corrected and these people should be helped. I don't see it much different from somebody being addicted to drugs. Sure, they might be happy taking drugs, but that's not going to work well forever. (Obviously this is an exaggerated example)
It only works if you have a garuntee that you can be a shut in till the day you die. Other things to worry about is getting health/dental care.
I've been a shut in for 5 years now, I was pretty content and happy for the first few years. It was only until my parents started having financial troubles and begun the process of divorce when it turned into hell. Everyday I'm terrified by the thought that one day I'll have to go back to society. I knew some people that went through this and they have mostly ended up homeless because they simply were too under qualified to get a job. Health care is a problem too, I do my best to stay in shape and eat healthy foods to prevent any major illnesses because if I were to get sick it would mean severe debts as I have 0 savings.
The following paragraph is key to understand the phenomenon.
I'm a western who have been living in Japan for years and is still difficult to understand how parents allow and support their children to be hikikomori.
“In western society, it’s difficult to understand this situation,” Dr. Kato says. “Western society parents strongly push [their children] to go out. But in Japan, parents are strongly afraid to push.”
What is your alternative then? Push them and if they don't respond throw them out onto the street?
Once your children understand that you won't actually throw them out, any conversation pushing them is just negatively reinforcing their impression that interaction is a problem, not a solution.
"People who consider themselves hikikomori exhibit a wide range of symptoms, including depressive, autistic and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. A minority appear addicted to the Internet"
That's strange, I always thought Internet was the main cause of this problem. I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight.
That's definitely not hikikomori. The real thing basically never leaves its room, with family providing food. Even a less extreme example almost certainly would never leave the home for long enough to die anywhere else.
They do often spend a lot of time on the internet, but it's not a cause, it's a related fixation (when you're trapped -- by what's probably some combination of your own preference and perceived outside forces -- in a room, the internet provides a wealth of things to do). It's a social malaise that might as well be an extension of the NEET phenomenon.
They are still people, even if you disagree or outright hate how they live their life. If this was an attempt at making the sentence gender-neutral, please use "one(s)" and "they" in the future like so: The real ones basically never leave their room, with...
What happens when a hikkomori gets kicked out of the house? My immediate thought running through my mind was that if these were my kids, they'd get the boot. Obviously things aren't that simple, but has anyone actually tried that? What happens? Do they just die?
> I've imagined hikikomori as those in S. Korea or Taiwan who die of exhaustion while playing online few days straight.
Nah, many of those are in internet cafés, and social pressure seems to be at least part of what keeps them playing (you don't see it happening with non-online games, after all). Different condition.
Reading over the comments it seems to me that there's some misunderstanding of introversion. There's a large difference between being introverted and being socially isolated. A healthy introvert rarely goes over a day without speaking to someone.
Keep in mind introversion does not mean that someone is against seeing people at all.
Does anyone who was born and raised in Japan have anything to say about all this? I've read several threads over the last couple of days on this topic and it seems that the only people who comment on these kinds of stories are at best foreigners living in Japan. Is this a taboo topic for native born Japanese?
I wonder if a mandatory national service or conscription would work to pull some people out of their bubble. I'm not in love with the idea in general, but if you can stop someone from wasting their whole life...
There exist people with similar levels of social isolation who nonetheless go to work every day. They are occasionally written about in reports of him hikikomori, which strikes at least some people as odd, since "I go to a place where nobody cares about me and spend my entire day there" is not exactly out of the mainstream of Japanese experience.