Why do I have the feeling you are not a minority, have never been stopped or questioned for being some place you “didn’t belong” or had to tell your six foot 3 step son to make sure that he and his other Black friend (two of five Black guys in the entire school) didn’t walk to the Waffle House to meet their friends after the football game unless their White friend was going with them because they would get harassed by the police?
No I’m not saying “everyone is racist”. But it’s not my responsibility to spend my energy educating racist and to proffer myself as “one of the good ones”.
You didn’t answer the question - are you a minority?
Do you also think Hispanic people who are here legally should have a chat with a bunch of ICE agents to change their hearts and minds?
If you are White, would you go out of your way to reach out to someone who belongs to a group who actively hates White people? I’m not naming a specific group even though I’m sure they exists because I honestly have no idea what groups they are and I would no more spend energy trying to change their minds either. If anyone in my family said anything that was outright racist or homophobic I would check them also.
My dad (now 83) on the other hand did slightly change his opinion on sexuality when he had to admit that one of his nephews were gay. But even then on a macro level he isn’t going to be waving a Pride flag around and he still thinks being gay is a moral sin that is going to damn a person to hell.
It’s just like a White guy I was friends with for years on a personal level, I had no doubt that if I needed him or if he saw someone harassing me or my family he would take out one of his many guns and defend me.
But once Trump came on the scene and I saw some of his posts on FB, I realized that he treated me as “one of the good ones” and if I was some random guy that he met on the street he would’ve treated me differently. He went on a racist tirade on Facebook about his daughter dating a Black guy for instance.
I'm not the person you were replying to originally, I was providing context for who Daryl Davis is and what he has done
That doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same thing, anymore than save the whales or end world hunger. Only that people aren't immutable and irredeemable and it's not fair to dismiss the idea of connecting with them as inherently ridiculous
"Have patience and try to understand people you disagree with, and they might be open to changing their mind" isn't an out-of-reach unicorn tech investment, it is a fundamental building block of effective human communication. Ask any good salesperson
There is a huge difference between “I don’t agree with your stance on supply side economics or universal healthcare” and “I would just as well see you hanging from a tree as sitting here next to me” or “because you decide to love someone of the same sex, you are going to bring an end to this great nation and I will do everything I can to make your life miserable”,
I am not trying to “understand” anyone who thinks someone doesn’t deserve to exist.
Why do you assume that, and what is it you would like to achieve by saying so? Do you think I champion this because I've never helped someone become less prejudiced?
I'm sorry for what you've had to go through. But do you think the world will just change for the better of its own accord (or that it will never change for the better)?
this discussion reminds me of the quote by george bernard shaw: "The reasonable person adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable person"
And how has that worked out? Right now today, people are more willing to hurt themselves as long as they “own the libs”, see immigrants get mistreated, make sure Israel is protected so Jesus has somewhere to come back to (no exaggeration and I have no opinion on what Israel is doing. I don’t know enough), and non straight non Christians are treated as second class citizens.
The problem that Democrats and liberals have and why they are constantly shocked with outcomes is that despite what Michelle Obama says, this is exactly what the a large minority of the country is and always has been. They don’t care about corruption, the politics of revenge (and they cheer it), democracy, etc. The proof is in who they voted for.
Do you see the irony of stereotyping a large and diverse group of people based on the actions of an extreme few?
I take away a very different lesson. Folks who are shocked at the outcomes aren't listening to what others are saying. In fact I think that it's precisely because they have been ignored, dismissed, and treated with condescension that things have come to this and this anger has festered. Folks left behind by a system that has sold them out and left them without hope for a better tomorrow. I feel Bernie would have beat Trump in 2016, because he was speaking to the same message and was also not part of that status quo system. As FDR said in 1938, "I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism...will grow in strength in our land."
Of course malign actors have taken advantage of this and lied to people and told them what they wanted to hear, and the naked sabotage of the bipartisan immigration reform bill is par for the course from the same crew that sabotaged Vietnam peace talks in '68 (and possibly the Iran hostages in '80). Nevertheless, too often any concerns about immigration are immediately dismissed as racist. (This theme holds for other topics but I don't want to dilute the point). The politically connected know this stuff, but the "garbage in, garbage out" rule applies to humans and media consumption too. I blame the liars more than those who were lied to.
PS, I found that Davis himself has addressed this topic:
> “Every racist that I know—and I know a lot of racists—every racist that I know voted for Donald Trump,” Davis said near the end of the interview. “However,” he added, “that does not, and I expressly repeat it, that does not mean that everybody who voted for Donald Trump is a racist. There are plenty of people, including good friends of mine, who are not racist, and who voted for Trump. A lot of people wanted a change from what they were accustomed to for the last decades … they wanted a change of the status quo, a changing of the guard. And they were willing to overlook his misogyny, his racist or bigoted comments. They just wanted that change. They were are not racist people. But every racist I know did vote for him.”
If (the royal) you turn a blind eye and making excuses to someone who is systemically putting policies in place and demonizing people of different races and sexuality, you are part of the problem. There is a huge difference between deporting people who are here illegally (something Obama did more than Trump) and demonizing them and saying they are eating pets.
No I don’t agree with the chucking and jiving Davis. Just like if you belong to a church that spews racist non sense or defend Liberty University that until very recently made interracial dating against the rules, (again the royal “you”) are not someone that I can be friends with.
Yes you did have two bad choices and I know people who didn’t vote for Trump as much as they voted against Kamala and the entire vomit inducing DEI, allyship indoctrination that I had to endure during my stint at BigTech.
And stop blaming the politicians. We have seen time and time again that when conservative outlets veered even slightly toward not agreeing with Trump, people abandoned them.
Even today 40% of the population agree what Trump is doing. This gets back to the naive belief that liberals have that you can change the hearts and minds of rural evangelical Christians who have been all about grievances since before my parents were born even if you have a “some good ones”, they are still supporting the system and not speaking out.
I don't consider it turning a blind eye, quite the opposite. I don't think that not interacting with "bad people" will make the problem go away. Just telling people they are wrong for thinking something doesn't generally change one's mind (https://pbfcomics.com/comics/deeply-held-beliefs/)
I'm not saying kumbaya, why can't we all get along, let bygones be bygones. I'm not naive, I am saying a very simple truth: folks will go where they are accepted and listened to. You may not agree with them and they may think stupid and bad things. Too bad! Those are the facts on the ground and we must deal with them. If we just plug our ears and shun them, guess who are the only people who will listen to and accept them (very basic human needs, after all)?
Again, this is not a value judgment, and no one is saying everyone should go proselytize in the lion's den. But given that people do exist with beliefs we don't like, what then, do we just skip to "civil war" to solve the problem?
I'm also not so naive to think that we can just empathize our way out of this. It's not a fair fight, so to speak, there is a ton of money flowing the opposite way, amplifying falsehoods and exaggerations. In fact I do think it's a losing battle. But when the opportunity presents itself in the right circumstances I cannot turn away
And so then, why the hell shouldn't we blame those who are cynically and stoking feeding this hate, knowingly trafficking in falsehoods? (As in your example of eating the pets)
And now you seem to minimize “disagreement”. We aren’t talking about disagreeing on policy. We are talking about them disagreeing on someone’s fundamental right to exist as an individual and to be treated with respect. My son went to high school and still lives in a majority White suburb of Atlanta (we moved). He’s dates exclusively White girls. Not because of racism. That’s just who is in his circle. It’s never been an issue with relatives.
But there are people who still would think that interracial dating is a “sin”. He knows that and I told him to ignore those people. They don’t affect his life and don’t let them affect his happiness.
It wasn't at all my intent to reduce or equate bigotry to policy disagreements. I was only saying that it is inaccurate to conclude people are irredeemably bigoted solely based on their votes
Politicians won by listening to the discarded and disaffected, though many did so with lies and/or spreading/stoking racist nonsense
I am also in no way saying this explains everyone, just "most x are y" doesn't mean "most y are x"
The narrative of the college dropout turning billionaire is a myth, at least insofar as it ignores their already wealthy family background. Nothing about survivorship in there.
I believe the point is "here's how I dropped out of college and became rich, you can too" has the survivorship bias of "here are all the college dropouts who didn't become rich"
This is the case with most success story biographies because luck (including "be born to a rich family with connections") plays a large role, and many others who took similar actions did not have the same successful result, therefore the advice does not guarantee success
Of course the same could be said for any advice, because chance plays a role in everything
I think it's a valid question, though: are you going to fail with empathy 9 times out of 10? 99 times out of 100? 999 times out of a thousand? And so on.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but what I do think is it has better odds than telling people what they are supposed to think.
What about shunning people? Well, I think in the past that could have gone either way: their choice was to either fit in with society or be alone. But now, everyone can find their fringey flock, which I think is why flat earthers and moon landing hoaxers are more of a thing than they were. It's not as much about the beliefs as it is the social club.
Again, people are suggesting that I as a Black person should “empathize” with someone who doesn’t feel like I should get equal treatment, doesn’t belong in their space, etc.
But in today’s society, it’s not allowed for politicians or anyone to be openly hostile toward Black people. So they choose immigrants, non straight people or non Christians. Those people don’t deserve “empathy”.
I think what is happening often is people having different definitions of “empathy“. For me, it is “feeling with“, being in a shared space of feelings; it’s not a cognitive skill but emotional - they are equally human/living creatures and I can sense their underlying emotions and thus reason about their motivations. This means I can both empathize and have a different point of view. Empathy, for me, does not imply sympathy, agreement or submission.
i didn't say that you should. please reread what i said: i would not go out of my way to find these people, but if one of my friends turned out to be one of them, then i would try to slowly change their mind. using daryl davis as inspiration means that if he can befriend complete strangers to change their mind, then i can make an effort with the friends that i already have. that's all i am suggesting here. and in particular this call goes out to people who are not a minority themselves.
By definition, as a Black guy, how would I have White friends who didn’t like Black people? I mentioned I go down to the bar downstairs from where I live where I’m friends with the bartender to hang out with him and whoever comes by - all tourists who I will probably never see again (near Disney world). I’ve met and spoken to people all over the world and even had a few shallow conversations with people who only spoke Spanish using my very limited (B1) level Spanish speaking skills.
What I’m not going to do is go to a rural evangelical church in Alabama to let them get to know me.
I hate the narrative that I’m suppose to be “the better person”. I don’t owe anyone my energy. I don’t owe people “forgiveness” who want to bring harm to me or my family. I have no need to show people that I’m “the model negro”.
I also wouldn’t have “friends” of any color who spew racists or homophobic BS. Again I have plenty of friends who are traditional Reagan/Bush/Romney pre-2016 conservatives. We disagree on certain things. But we agree on common human decency.
I also find the “allyship” crap that I see in leftist circles vomit worthy.
On another post here on HN, someone posted on an “Ask HN” how could they find a job as someone with cerebral palsy. I mentioned that I had “CP” that mostly affected my left hand and went on about the post.
Then I had I guess people who called themselves “disability allies” chastise me for using the abbreviation “CP” because it was also an abbreviation for child porn.
I had to point out that every single disability organization like Easter Seal (the place I went growing up) abbreviated it CP.
It’s no different than I assume White people telling me that I should befriend a Klansmen to change their mind. Until you have walked in my skin, you have no right to tell me how I should spend my time changing the minds of a bunch of racists pricks.
No I’m not saying “everyone is racist”. But it’s not my responsibility to spend my energy educating racist and to proffer myself as “one of the good ones”.