Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

This makes a lot of sense to me. When you ride in an Uber or a taxi, you're a guest in the driver's space. In a Waymo, it's your own space. You can play music, talk on the phone, etc. without worrying about disturbing the driver. You're not likely to have strong odors, or driver's phone conversations. And the experience will be roughly consistent each time. In an Uber, you have no idea what the car or the driving standards will be like until you're in it. I trust my own driving over a Waymo, but I'd trust Waymo over an average Uber driver, let alone a bad one.

I've had some nice conversations with Uber drivers, but I've had some unpleasant rides too. I'd definitely pay a bit extra for a good driverless car. ('Good' being key. After trying out the Tesla FSD beta a couple times though, you couldn't pay me to ride in one of those without the ability to grab control.)



There’s something to be said for being able to not be forced to deal with a person, but I see something different personally.

I’m “old” (40s) so I didn’t grow up with Uber. Maybe that colors my take.

I don’t want to hire random Joes. If I wanted to buy a lift from a random person, I’d expect it to be very cheap.

If I’m hiring someone to drive me from A to B I want a professional service. I want professional drivers in a fleet of maintained cars.

With Uber/Lift you don’t know. Many drives do a great job and treat their cars/passengers like they’re professionals. Others don’t.

The taxi industry sucked. They had no competition and could get lazy and do a terrible job and people still had to use them anyway. That needed fixing.

But I don’t think the lesson we should learn is “taxis bad” but “bad service is bad”. And Uber/Lyft being so variable is not a plus at their prices.


I think that the best thing about Uber/Lyft is that they've been a wake up call for the taxi industry.

I don't think I'd be able to book taxis (and pay in advance) using an app in my country, if Uber/Lyft didn't exist.


Mysteriously their credit card machines work a lot more often now


Yes, I'm shocked! Some traditional taxis in my area now have a sticker on the window saying they take credit cards!


The professional driver in a professional fleet service exists. It existed in the taxi era too.

If you ever see an aggressive driver cutting their way through traffic in a perfectly maintained Escalade or Navigator heading towards the airport, that’s them.


Black cars existed before Uber and Lyft -- in fact, that was how Uber started.

Uber, in fact, still offers black cars (professional drivers) as an option.


> Uber, in fact, still offers black cars (professional drivers) as an option

In my experience, Uber Black means the driver owns a professional-grade car. Whether they’re a professional driver who treats their clients professionally, e.g. not taking phone calls during the ride, is another matter.


This, black car service is not what uber offers. They offer a uber driver with a black car.


It depends on location


> It depends on location

Can you clarify? From https://www.uber.com/us/en/ride/uberblack/, the only obvious location dependency is that drivers must "meet state- or local-level livery regulations" -- I think this just means that for this subset of drivers, Uber chooses to actually verify that they're following the law? Which I know is a deviation from their usual model, but seems like it's very literally the least they could do. Is there more per-geo (per-country?) variation in what "Black" means that's not documented there?


In some places (like Zurich) it’s always been a typical livery driver.

I guess that’s consistent? Some places have stronger regs for a livery license?


But a lot of people basically wanted VC-subsidized cheaper cabs. Even if the easier and more reliable ordering was a bonus.


I don't think "cheap" was the main factor, at least for me and my friends.

Predictable pricing, predictable arrival, automated booking, and an ability to complain to someone was significantly more important.

(From what I've read, this happened naturally in other countries, but in US, the taxi monopoly was so bad, we needed something crazy like Uber)


Cheap and easy were the big factors, in roughly equal proportions, with a nod towards cheap. I did a lot of things I didn't need to do and just wouldn't have done at all if I would have had to pay taxi prices for several years while Ubers were cheap. Taxi's were also only easily available in very limited circumstances.

Taxi's here worked one of two ways. You either negotiated a price before leaving, or they ran a meter and went some crazy route then when you got to the destination clicked a bunch of buttons and the total went up by $15-$20.

When negotiating a price, it was usually $10 per person, for about a 3-4 mile ride, and they wouldn't take you right away if less than 4 people. They would encourage you to load like 8 or 10 people in (All Taxi's were vans) and would try to pick up other people along the way. Tipping was all but mandatory. So add another $2-3 per person.

Uber/Lyft on the other hand was $5-6 or $2-3 for the shared one. An SUV was like $12-$20 that could seat 7, and the whole booking on the phone and tracking was excellent. Uber was so cheap that I would frequently book them because it was easier than going down into the parking garage since I could just meet the Uber on the street.

A cheap ride in 5-10 minutes was available pretty much 24 hours a day. Now surge pricing was a whole different beast, but I never got caught in that.

Not only that, the first 2 years it was completely free. Because I got a $25 credit for signing up and then $25 for ever referral. I had a prepaid phone from some spring MVNO that let you change your number by just texting a shortcode. I would just make a new account every night before I went out and have $50 in free rides.

Now Lfyt and Uber are expensive, there's practically none available unless it's the middle of the day. Taxi's are down to pretty much $5 per person to go most places, but they are just completely destroyed unsafe cars. The last one I took was a longer ride $10 or $20 and it had no seat belts and the driver was so large I have no idea how he got in and out of the car.


I don't disagree. As a business traveler, it was probably about ease. When I'd go down to one of our other company locations semi-regularly, I'd usually grab a cab at the airport because it was easy. Going the other way, I'd usually grab a Lyft. The Lyft was a bit cheaper but eh.

I admit I'm usually taking public transit while traveling if it's reasonably convenient but cheaper ride-share (or taxi) options can tilt the balance when public transit is complicated/awkward. Rent a car for long distance and rural. (I did start using Uber/Lyft in some situations in areas like Silicon Valley where I would previously have reflexively rented a car.) Around where I live, driving my car is the only real alternative except in special cases. And I essentially always take a pre-booked private car back and forth to the airport.

So, for me, more about ease but if I tended to rely on taxi-type services in cities more, it would probably be more about cost which is probably the case with many people commenting here.


Ubers were often half the cost of a taxi as well, and the drivers were getting paid more than you were paying uber, so this definitely impacted how many of my peers were taking uber instead of public transit.


> From what I've read, this happened naturally in other countries, but in US, the taxi monopoly was so bad, we needed something crazy like Uber

Depends on the city but definitely not the case everywhere in India. Uber and Ola (a local Uber alternative) massively forced taxi/auto (tuktuk) unions to weaken their bargaining position.

There’s still a mafia eg in Goa where they literally threaten Uber drivers, but it’s relatively very different post Uber.


Cheap factored in for some but easy of use and reliability were my main reasons for using Lyft/Uber.

Maybe if you lived in a bigger city the taxis were good but I assure you that in Lexington, KY they were terrible. You had to call into a dispatcher, the connection/quality was terrible, they were blunt/rude, and you got a general idea of when someone might show up. I tried once to schedule for 8:45am pick up (I called around 7:30) and someone showed up at 7:45am mad that I wasn't ready. On top of all of that _no one_ took credit card and the drivers were rude and often hard to communicate with.

With Lyft/Uber I could see where my driver was, my destination was already entered, and it was all charged to my card. I cannot stress enough how much better this was and I was happy to see the taxi companies go down in flames.

Uber and Lyft have _many_ problems but they are still leagues ahead of taxis. I recently traveled to Italy and absolutely hated the lack of Uber-like services and the need to use taxis. It felt like going back in time, I was shocked at the state of things there.

Lastly, nothing boils my blood quite like watching the meter all the way to the destination, then the driver pressing some buttons and the total jumping 20-50%. WTH is that? Whatever it is, I hate it.


> Maybe if you lived in a bigger city the taxis were good

I lived in a suburb of San Diego around 2012, and I switched to Uber after I missed two flights for work because taxi's just wouldn't show up on time. I don't love the rideshare services but taxis were simply so bad that anything was better.


I switched from shared ride services which were a PITA and then just just drove for a time which had a couple of issues. With my last job, I just started getting a private car which I used for both business and subsequent personal travel.


In 2010 getting any taxi in the us by phone was a crap shoot. Hour long waiting times with the car always being just 10 minutes away. Multiple calls. Unpredictable pricing.

Uber just worked.

People forget just how terrible taxi companies were when they were the monopoly.


What qualifies a professional driver? Lots of uber trips? A taxi licence? A chauffeur cap? A clean car? A person being employed by a company? Not sure but I suspect it's highly subjective. You can book a premium Uber. Or a limousine like the one some airlines offer as a business class package.


A sober, competent driver who has not been on duty more than 8 hours would be a good start.


I agree. Just FYI, Uber limits driving time to 10 hours, the requires 8 hours of break. Does not stop the driver from using Lyft during the break time though.


A “professional driver” does not have the ability to rate me on a scale of one to five.


Exactly, I will pay a premium for not having to deal with a human being in the car with me.

It's a dice roll: you could get a very extroverted driver who won't leave you alone, or someone who smells bad, or someone rude, or a distracted driver...

Just let me sit in peace, alone with a robot.


Isolationism progresses.


1950: cars give you the freedom to go anywhere you want. Artificial fertilizer puts an end to hunger in industrialized world. Yeehaw!

2000: you are a second class citizen who can’t even get a job in many places if you do not have a car. Also the median person is overweight. But here is this new internet thing that lets you get everything you need in life sorted out with no need for human interactions. Yeehaw!

2025: the average person can no longer hold a conversation with a stranger for five seconds without having an anxiety attack. Oops!


> So when Vashti found her cabin invaded by a rosy finger of light, she was annoyed, and tried to adjust the blind. But the blind flew up altogether, and she saw through the skylight small pink clouds, swaying against a background of blue, and as the sun crept higher, its radiance entered direct, brimming down the wall, like a golden sea. It rose and fell with the air-ship’s motion, just as waves rise and fall, but it advanced steadily, as a tide advances. Unless she was careful, it would strike her face. A spasm of horror shook her and she rang for the attendant. The attendant too was horrified, but she could do nothing; it was not her place to mend the blind. She could only suggest that the lady should change her cabin, which she accordingly prepared to do. People were almost exactly alike all over the world, but the attendant of the air-ship, perhaps owing to her exceptional duties, had grown a little out of the common. She had often to address passengers with direct speech, and this had given her a certain roughness and originality of manner. When Vashti swerved away from the sunbeams with a cry, she behaved barbarically — she put out her hand to steady her.

> “How dare you!” exclaimed the passenger. “You forget yourself!”

> The woman was confused, and apologized for not having let her fall. People never touched one another. The custom had become obsolete, owing to the Machine

The Machine Stops (1909)

https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/...


Wow. It's hard to believe this novella was written in 1909. The imagination and insight of the author is remarkable. It reads as an account of a dystopic future that we are now more and more living in the present.

Thank you for sharing this.


I don't _want_ to have a random conversation with a person every time I ride a cab. Especially after a long flight and/or early in the morning.


And we wonder why we can’t get along anymore when the only time we go outside it to grab our Amazon packages off the porch.


It goes both ways too. Customer service in person has digressed pretty far.


What do you propose? Should Uber/Lyft train their drivers better to pick up on social cues to know when to engage and when to shut up and drive? Should they do more to make sure their drivers have good hygiene and manners?


After every ride the rider can vote on the driver. At least on Uber the driver gets 'punished' is his rating falls below 4. The driver will loose his rank benefits. As a rider you got to use the start. If it's ok, then 5. If there is something wrong, less than 5. Simple as that. As most people are voting 5 they seem to be over all ok with the overall service.


To be honest I'm afraid to rate low. I suspect I'll get flagged as a bad rater and banned from Uber/Lyft. So, if the ride is bad I just don't rate and don't tip. Even not tipping is scary to me given it's all tracked and they know me as a customer.

Another issue which I wish they'd add and related to rating, every person has a different preference. My preference is a safe driver who obeys traffic laws. Others people preferences are a driver who gets there as fast as possible, even if that means speeding, cutting people off, running red lights, etc... I've recorded drivers regualarly going 15-20 miles over the speed limit.

I wish I could put that preference in to the app and it would tell the driver, "this person will give you a higher rating if you drive safely and don't break any traffic laws". I'm not sure they could put the other "this passenger prefers quick service" without implying things.

Scaryiest Uber/Lyft I've had the driver was checking their stock portfolio on their smartphone while driving.


Like every company does with their employees?


It's not really a ride share problem. It's simply another crack showing how hard it is to just talk to people these days. There's a dozen other things to address first before I'd try to "make people be social in cars". funding into a variety of public spaces, better public transportation, regulating dating apps, better community outreach for events that already exist. I could go on.


Indeed. The market is exposing the truth here, whether that's the outcome some would prefer or not. These dense, wealthy, coastal regions are an endless fount of talk about how flyover suburbia is an unhealthy manifestation of isolation. Yet here we see that when given a choice in these same areas with their various competing taxi systems, isolation has significant monetary value.


Going outside costs $200 a day, and i cant afford to spend 1/4 my paycheck 7 times a week.

Also, I'm just doing my best to get the most out of the ludicrously high rent is pay every month.


I think you’re kidding, but I’m not sure. Can’t you walk to a park or ride your bike or something for free?


Time for a Perry Expedition-themed dating service.


How do you feel about public transportation?


They are two different things.

There are enough people on the bus or subway to be able to enforce some type of standard behavior. And if you encounter an unruly person, you can get off at the next stop.

With Uber and Lyft, it’s just you and the driver. You are also limited when you can exit the vehicle.


There's also the issue of tipping. I haven't been in a waymo but I generally tip well in Uber or Lyft. I wouldn't tip a robot. So at least to me $15+$5 tip vs $20 is pretty much a wash.


I was kinda pissed when my local mall got a "barista robot", and it asks for a 20% tip when you swipe your card


Tipping has lost its meaning and it is simply a money grab these days in many establishments, as your experience demonstrates. Like tipping for food to go.

I only tip when I sit down and good service is actually provided.


You don't have to tip an Uber or Lyft, either.


[Caveat: there aren't many Lyft drivers in my town, so I have only used Uber]

The problem is their system extorts you into tipping. If you don't tip, the driver will give you a 1/5 rating. If your rating averages low enough, nobody will pick you up. It's more of a bribe you pay for a good passenger rating than an actual tip.

As a result, you're forced to tip if you want to use it long term.

Personally, I'm hoping Waymo takes Uber's lunch money. I will gladly pay more for a service has not been infected with tipping.


Don't the drivers only see the tips in aggregate form at the end of the week?


Unsure. But they at least know you've tipped. "Steve thanked you for your tip."


> Unsure. But they at least know you've tipped. "Steve thanked you for your tip."

Wait, is that actually based on driver action? I assumed it was just another notification to drive "engagement" when someone accidentally taps it, same as the daily "special deals" for Eats and stuff.


That’s straight up false. I don’t tip and my Uber passenger rating was ~4.95 last I checked.


A single anecdote does not a dataset make


I never tip because it's not a custom in my country, but out of your two contradicting stories I believe the other one more. Does the driver even know the tip amount before rating the passenger? It works make sense if they didn't.

If he does it's indeed a bit weird (in a country where tipping is almost mandatory).


Tipping isn’t “almost mandatory”. People were happily driving Ubers before they even introduced the tipping feature in-app. My rating is based on taking hundreds of rides while living for years on both coasts, in CA and NJ. Out of all those rides only one driver (a horrible one, who took like three wrong turns in twenty minutes, with navigation) ever asked for a tip. I maintain my rating by being clean, polite, and punctual.


And yours isn’t a single anecdote? Oh wait, it’s actually not:

> If you don't tip, the driver will give you a 1/5 rating.

It’s a definitive, and provably false statement.


I haven't really thought about whether it's known or unknown. I've assumed it was known, but often I tip cash anyway.


I don’t know if that’s really how it works with Uber, but surely Waymo could charge extra for “priority pickup” if it got popular enough.


Unless the app changed in the past year, they can see individual tips and can change their passenger ratings for those who don't pay the "optional" tip.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/uber/comments/18x5rxj/do_drivers_se...


If it's actually for priority that's okay. It will only have a significant effect when they're hitting their capacity limits, and it ends up being similar to surge pricing.

If they start refusing to pick up people that don't pay, while having idle cars, I expect them to get in trouble in various ways.


They have to rate long before you tip/rate.


Drivers have up to two weeks to change passenger ratings. A petty driver could see their passenger tipped and then go back and change the ratings.


Sure, nobody has to tip anyone. But I do tip taxis and etc, typically about 30%, and it factors into my overall price perception.

I'm just saying $15 that I will add a tip to vs $20 that I have no intention or inclination to tip isn't anything more than I don't have any expectations or empathy about tipping a machine. It doesn't seem particularly complex an issue about why Waymo can charge the same amount that I am willing to pay anyway.


Holy crap that’s 33% tip!


It's also a small, $5 tip. When you get small numbers, like $5, it tends to blow out the percentages.


Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft (which can be a barely drivable car with rank cloth interior where you can't even fit two people in the back seat)?

Next up, some one will post, "First class tickets cost more than coach."

Waymo will eventually have Waymo Comfort and Waymo Black.


> Why is anyone surprised that a smaller segment of the market will pay more for a safer ride in a luxury vehicle compared to a base model Lyft

It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one.


Is it? It might be some day but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending.


> Is it?

Ummm then why on earth would they spend the money to build them if it wasn't?!

> but they certainly have to factor in all the R&D they're spending.

Those are capital expenses.


> It's a criticism, because this same segment also realizes that a Waymo ride is WAY cheaper to operate than a human driven one.

If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere. If it is true, and that’s a big if that it isn’t being subsidized by the rest of Alphabet, it is only true in a very, very, tiny area of the Earth.

On the other hand, Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits.


This is true for mature markets but a new technology that a horde of lawyers are salivating over a chance to sue has a significant asymptomatic risk. One accident and the whole business is illegalized.


> If this were broadly true, Waymo would be everywhere.

It's not everywhere because of regulation and Waymo wanting to strategically roll it out carefully to markets. Remember, this is Waymo's first market to offer Waymo through the Uber app. There's a reason Waymo hasn't tested non-human driving in Chicago but it has in Phoenix, SF and Austin (I could give you a hint as to why but I'm sure its obvious).

> Uber is a publicly listed company with public financials already operating globally with profits.

And wants to create even more profit...what's your point? Also it's operating income is a paltry $2B for a company with $41B in revenue. Most of its current net income is from investing activities.


It’s not, or at least it definitely wasn’t a year ago. Those cars were something like $700k each and then there is a lot of software dev and AI infra to pay for. They were charging more than Lyft and were still losing money per ride.


> Those cars were something like $700k each

Source? Also, those numbers are quoted with including capital expenditures, which will get depreciated over years. Also, to do a like for like comparison you have to include all of the people, processes, and systems in place that support drivers. That cost center at Uber has to be in the millions globally for Uber (and hard to calculate on a per driver basis, but possible if we had internal numbers).


No public source, just talking to old coworkers at Google asking why the rollout was so incredibly slow in the Phoenix location. It’s almost all one big county and the driving conditions are the same across that whole valley.

So why not open up the entire service area? The answer was cost. At the time they were still losing money per ride to help get ML training feedback.


    > where you can't even fit two people in the back seat
Is this exaggeration? I hope so. I have never seen a taxi nor ride share car that would ever qualify this statement.


I'm in LA, so I'm still skeptical about "safer". Granted, that's not a high bar, but I know who's accountable if an Uber/Lyft crashes.


I don't know if this is still true in the age of cellphones and uber, but when I was young, women were often advised not to take taxis alone, especially when drunk. There were a few high-profile rapes and murders.

As an bald, middle-aged man such risks are negligible for me, but I can see how some people might prefer a driverless vehicle.


Yeah I'm an ugly middle aged man myself. I'm more worried about the car than the person in it in my case. And I don't trust the tech yet in my area.


The driver whose main asset was the car that just crashed, and whose insurance may or may not be valid?


Still an easier battle than fighting a millionaire tech company on uncharted legal territory. Most of thr battle will be from my health insurance finding a anyone else to pay in that scenario.


but do you care for accountability or more safety (through lower crash rate)at the end of the day?


Between modern car safety standards and modern US healthcsre: accountability. The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter.


> The worst case scenario (where I still live) is drastic and I'd rather not add fighting a tech company in court on top of the medical burden, which I'll need to do just to afford the latter.

If you're aware of a medical burden, you've done a pretty good job of avoiding the worst case scenario.


I wonder... are the passengers recorded while in a Waymo?

Does Google ever delete those records? Being Google, I bet they don't.


Yes, I assume these are recorded to prevent vandalism. To be fair, someone might get legitimately sick in the car (ex. child). So Google can review the tapes and decide if it was intentional or not.

Regarding retention of these video recordings, you should check the Waymo user agreement in your area. You might even have the right to ask them to delete it earlier.


Would a CCPA delete request handle it? Or are they compelled to keep the video for legal reasons


First, I never heard of CCPA before this post. Wiki tells me: <<The California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) is a state statute intended to enhance privacy rights and consumer protection for residents of the state of California>>

Reading that Wiki page also taught me about the follow-up act passed by ballot prop: <<The California Privacy Rights Act of 2020 (CPRA)... The CPRA took effect on January 1, 2023, applying to personal data collected on or after January 1, 2022. The law cannot be repealed by state legislature, and any amendments made must be “consistent with and further the purpose and intent” of the Act.>>. (Wow... pretty strong!)

I like your idea. I think it would be a worthy experience for someone on HN to contact Waymo after taking some rides and ask about videos taken during their ride. Do they have a system to request removal? Also: What are their rights under CCPA?

Finally, here is a help page from Waymo about the issue: https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9190819?hl=en

Last FAQ has the key:

    > Can I remove my data from Waymo’s system?
    > You have many choices regarding how your data is used, such as viewing and editing trip history in the Waymo One app, updating your account information, deleting your account, changing location permissions, and opting out of receiving promotional messages.
    > California residents have the ability to delete personal information associated with their Waymo One account or download a copy of it. If you have questions or requests related to your rights under state privacy laws, you (or your authorized agent) can also contact Waymo using this help article, Exercising your California privacy rights, or by calling us at 1-844-261-3753. See more information about these tools in our Privacy Policy.


I did a CCPA delete request on Uber and got fresh rider rating haha


Maybe it's my rampant misanthrope leanings, but even in more trivial things like choosing automated kiosks other staffed in CVS, I'm just more comfortable not having to make small talk with a person, worry if they're having a good day or not etc.

I'd happily pay 20 percent more to Waymo for that personless experience too.


It's interesting how American cultural expectations of forced social interaction may be having the effect of promoting automated systems as a reaction.

As someone who lives in Spain and has lived in the UK, the idea of choosing self-checkout at a supermarket to avoid small talk with a cashier sounds alien to me; we simply don't do that here. While cashiers will certainly chat with certain customers while scanning their items, it's either that they know each other or it was initiated by the customer. I always choose staffed checkout over self-checkout because it's literally less effort for me, but I could imagine American social expectations at checkout —"How are you doing today?", "Oh these apples look amazing!", "Having a party are we?"— absolutely tipping the balance of effort and pushing me to self-checkout.


For me the appeal of self checkout is that everyone gets in the same line and then fans out to the next free checkout machine. I don't have to wonder if I chose wrong when I see all the other lines moving faster. Some places with human cashiers (such as Marshall's) do this, and it's great.


I'm not an introvert by any means, but I still choose whichever system is likely to work better.

At the supermarket, if I'm doing my monthly giant shopping trip and filling the car with non-perishables, I go through the attended checkout. Those people are quick and accurate, and there are two of them -- a checker and a bagger.

But if I only have one or two items, there's no line at the self-checkout, and I just throw the stuff into my backpack.

I wonder if a lack of class divisions is what encourages small talk in our society.

One thing about automated systems is that they have to work perfectly or they don't get used. I thought about this when taking the tram from the terminal to the parking facility at O'Hare Airport. I honestly don't know if the tram has a human driver or not. If that tram has a breakdown, it cause instant gridlock throughout the airport. And the way you make things work better (in the traditional quality control sense) is to make them more predictable.

And admittedly, I'm not shy, but I'm just a bit muddle-headed. With an app, I can see every detail of my request on the screen (and be looking at Google Maps on another screen maybe, or other information sources) before I click "accept." This makes it easier. But when I click "accept," I really don't care if the car that shows up has a human driver or not. I'm also pretty much oblivious as to whether it's a Mercedes or a Chevy.


It was an old school approach to appear friendly, which in theory makes customers more comfortable and encourages retention. Small steps to build a community. At the very least, you don't want to appear like that unresponsive cashier who's clearly having a bad day and grimaces at you when you say 'hello'.

It's definitely a generational issue. Gen X and older seem to appreciate small talk more than most millenials and pretty much all of Gen Z.


Yeah, Walgreens (US drugstore chain for those who aren’t familiar) often has their cashiers say “hi, welcome to Walgreens!” when customers come in.

It just doesn’t work. Customers are wearing headphones, or on the phone, or sick with a respiratory infection and wearing a mask and trying not to talk unnecessarily, or don’t speak English very well, or maybe they’re just trying to remember everything they need, and it quickly gets awkward for everyone.

The same store often has the credit card terminal ask customers to donate a dollar to various causes, which I’ve seen completely stump foreign tourists and generally slowing down the line.


Perhaps I'm overly cynical but I always assumed the walgreens greeting was an anti-theft thing. It's particularly apparent with the big box stores in bad neighborhoods where they are extremely overt about it in my experience - at least two greeters, making strong eye contact, a very loud and energetic greeting - whereas the ones in the nicer neighborhoods often don't have anyone hanging out at the front like that.


That is extremely rare in America, too. But it still feels awkward to an introvert. Just having another person nearby makes you feel self conscious. You won't be called on to make small talk, but you can't be sure of that.


I think what you are describing is social anxiety, not just being introverted.


My spicy take is that ~90% of people who believe they are introverts actually have a middle level of extroversion plus social anxiety.


> It's interesting how American cultural expectations of forced social interaction may be having the effect of promoting automated systems as a reaction.

That's not it. The issue is that it is FAR easier for me to interact with automation than some completely incompetent service worker.

Yes, I get it. The service jobs pay so poorly that nobody competent wants to work them. However, at the end of the day, I simply want to accomplish my task and get going. For example, if you're drunk or stoned off your ass, to pick a totally random (not) example, you're probably in my way.

Because of general levels of incompetence, automated systems are quite often better than most service workers I'm interacting with. Additionally, the service worker probably is limited to the same authority as me ie. totally unable to help because they are completely stuck with the same shitty web interface to solve my problem as I am.


Gotta disagree here. Running a checkout lane isn't exactly rocket science, and as such the vast majority of the experiences I have in staffed checkout lanes are neutral to good.

When using automated checkout on the other hand, if I even so much as move the wrong way, the system stops and makes me wait for a staff member who is busy dealing with 6 other red-flashing checkouts. When they finally make it over to me, I'm forced to sit and watch a video from 3 angles of me not shoplifting. Accidentally scanned some alcohol instead of waiting until the end? Scanning is halted again until they get a chance to make their way over to me. Using my own bags, but guess the wrong number up front and need to add one later? STOP THIEF!

Recently our local Aldi removed all but one staffed register and replaced the rest with automated. This is absolutely baffling to me--the cashiers at Aldi don't make small talk, they're trained for speed! It's fun to watch while I'm bagging up my groceries, because the staffed register is consistently crushing carts at 3x the rate of any of the self checkouts.

Automated checkouts are consistently worse, and it's not even close. I guess the one benefit they have is that they make small talk with the single person managing 14 self checkouts easier--you already have in common your frustration with the self checkout system.


> if I even so much as move the wrong way, the system stops and makes me wait for a staff member who is busy dealing with 6 other red-flashing checkouts.

This is completely the fault of the store.

This is on irritating display with the HEB grocery stores in Texas. Go to a standard HEB and self-checkout has exactly the failures you are talking about. Go to a Central Market HEB (the upscale, Whole Foods-like version) and the self-checkouts don't do ANY of those irritating things (alcohol being the exception).

Funny that.


I hate checkout machines that require a billion taps on the screen for basic vegetables or fruit. Just give me the keyboard immediately and let me type the first 3 letters or something.


unrelated but we got new checkout machines that used computer vision to guess what fruits are on the scale. It gives 5 guesses on top of the screen, and usual UI on the bottom, allowing shortcut so fast when it guesses correctly, that it feels like a future.

All my friends are convinced that "computer vision" on this thing is just color-based. I kinda think they are right, and we could have had that for decades


> The issue is that it is FAR easier for me to interact with automation than some completely incompetent service worker

You are comparing good automation with incompetent service worker. It's obvious what the conclusion would be.


> You are comparing good automation with incompetent service worker. It's obvious what the conclusion would be.

Sure. But the problem is that I so rarely interact with a competent service worker nowadays that even poor automation sadly wins the comparison most of the time.


If the automated systems work I'd use them. Instead, USA systems are designed around trying to prevent theft and they error in the store's favor. I've had those automated systems scream that I haven't put my purchase in the bag. The purchase being single envelope of yeast, too light to measure. So it screams and scream "PLEASE PLACE THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG", "PLEASE PLACE THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG", "PLEASE PLACE THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG", "PLEASE PLACE THE PRODUCT IN THE BAG" until some employee comes over and presses reset on the machines. Meanwhile the entire store is glaring at you.

So yea, I've stop using automated machines in the USA.


Definitely a store choice. I am in an area with Publix grocery stores and have never had an issue with self checkout. I bring my own bags and have a bag in the bag area and one in the cart and can scan items and put them right back in the bag cart without any issue. They have a person monitoring the 5 stations and clearing alcohol purchases and other issues and it goes very fast. They also pay their people well, so the staffed checkout lanes are also very fast. I just personally prefer packing my own bags, even though I’m not as quick as the workers.


Make it your goal to trip up the machines, then when its losing its mind it's a victory rather than an embarrassment.


i avoid those stores, i agree it’s very irritating. Stop & Shop is a good example. The checkout machine is constantly weighing the bag! Ugh.

As an FYI there are stores that DON’T have annoying self checkout machines: Target, Walmart, Whole Foods, Costco, Home Depot, and a few more…


The Target near me won't let you scan any item over $100 at self-checkout, but they don't tell you that before you get in the self-checkout line. I've had to go through 2 10min plus lines before and now I just avoid the self-checkout. I'm sure in the long run it's costing them


I don't think it's an USA thing. I completely stopped using the self checkout at my closest store. When I put a fucking 12 pack of toilet paper on the scale and it errored out.

I mean, you can error out at food stuff that loses weight over time (fresh bread for example), that may be acceptable. But at known weight toilet paper?


[flagged]


Flagged and dead? Are we to take that as Y-Combinator officially endorsing violent rioting and property destruction?


What makes you think this? It was flagged by users. No moderators had touched it, or seen it.


Flagging is one thing, but I assume that there is a human in the loop before a user is put in the dead state.


There isn't. Almost everything you see that's killed has been put into that state without any moderator action. We review the ones we have time to review but that can be hours or days later, and we don't get to them all because there are so many (though users can vouch them or email us to bring anything to our attention to be reviewed).

Further, even if we leave something dead, it's no indication of any "agreement" or "endorsement" of anything. We're not here to promote any editorial line. All we care about is whether a comment is within the guidelines:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


How much karma do you need to have before you're trusted to flag and vouch for comments?


A trivial amount you've had for ages (31 karma[0] - although it's not public, I'm sure the unofficial guides adjust accordingly)

[0]: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggi...


I wonder why I've never had that ability then.


You have to click on the time of a comment (eg "2 days ago", "1 hour ago") to see the [flag] link, and you have to have show-dead turned on to see the [vouch] links. They're not super obvious in the UI by default, but you probably have the ability. You'll see a lot more bots/spammers/noise if you have show-dead turned on.


Wow thanks. I’ve probably spent a thousand hours reading hacker news comments and never noticed.


I'd say it's the rejection of a tangential political snipe in support of autocratic authoritarianism, in a place where it isn't going to lead to a fleshed-out discussion.

Keep turning the screws on people, and some people will turn to property destruction. The individual acts are wrong and misguided. But the overall dynamic is completely understandable, and ignoring it is as disingenuous as "let them eat cake".


This is why I’m long AI as well - people will pay a premium for inferior service if it means they don’t have to talk to a human


Exactly. You're not paying more for the same ride. You are paying to have some time alone. To not have to deal with others where you can listen to an audiobook, have a conversation on your phone that feels private or other things.


And all of it is subsidized by the carless taxpayer.


Tesla fsd and Waymo are far different in the technical sense.


Are they cleaned after each rider? How can they not build up an odor, lol


No driver is going to be smoking in Waymo car. (And if a passenger smokes, they'll be charged $100)

I assume there are also industrial-strength cleaners during the downtime/refueling.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: