Adam Smith already pointed out that a trade deficit is not really interesting, so I do not understand the American obsession about it ;)
Also, the often-mentioned US-EU trade deficit is not that big if you count in services. Which I think should be done in the 21st century. Large parts of the US economy are focused on digital high-value services, and they are "exported" worldwide.
> Also, the often-mentioned US-EU trade deficit is not that big if you count in services. Which I think should be done in the 21st century. Large parts of the US economy are focused on digital high-value services, and they are "exported" worldwide.
This is why, in case of reciprocal tarriffs on physical goods, the US ends up the big winner - they don't apply to digital services, which are a huge part of US exports.
Now the world had slowly been catching onto this fact that they'd been getting absolutely rinsed by the FAANGs who have gotten their populace addicted to their opium and made trillions off of them without contributing anything meaningful back. For the first time, we were seeing digital services taxes - a decade overdue. Brazil now has one in place - great on them. The EU was also planning one, but then the tarriffs came, and suddenly voices are saying they might abandon it. If the current US gov was any other US gov, the obvious conclusion would be that they're using tarriffs as a pawn to prevent the rise of digital service taxes.
Obviously, in the current timeline this wasn't the main reason. But there's no way Mark, Satya, Jeff and Tim haven't been whispering into big leader's ear just how "unfair" these DSTs are.
In fact, according to US government published numbers, the US runs a goods+services surplus with quite a few countries.
FWIW, I’m not sure I believe the official numbers, or at least I don’t believe that they measure anything useful. When a French customer buys an AMD CPU or Nvidia GPU that was made in Taiwan, the physical object may never touch US soil, but a lot of money flows in. Did we export a good, a service, or neither?
What about when a Spanish user sees an ad funded by a German company and four different US intermediaries are involved in showing that ad? What if the US companies play complex accounting tricks to redirect the income to a subsidiary in a low-tax jurisdiction like Ireland and then effectively materialize some of the dollars in the US by buying shares in the parent company’s stock but mostly just let the nominally Irish dollars sit in US accounts and let US people own very valuable stock?
(Interestingly, IMO none of this requires that USD be a reserve currency. One could easily imagine the same type of economy where gold earned in Europe in deposited in a vault in the US, held by an account that is nominally Irish, and used as investment collateral for various US or foreign investments denominated in XAU. Or it could be cryptocurrency or pretty beads or whatever.)
Of course, if you take these numbers and throw them into the USTR’s ridiculous “reciprocal” formula, you don’t even end up agreeing with the sign of the tariffs proposed for a lot of countries.
Up until now it was a fairly harmless political distortion. I suspect in the past we maybe had some executives who themselves bought into it but they took input from folks more educated on the matter and just let sleeping dogs lie.
But now we have an administration who at least seems to believe it whole heatedly and isn't interested in anyone who is educated on the subject providing input.
The obsession has at least one interesting question attached: ownership of real property. At the limit, at least, that becomes a genuinely interesting question.
yes indeed - it has been conflated with the decline of US manufacturing. Reality is the most significant export of the US is the USD itself - that is the trade good which everyone must have (at US insistence)
Out of all the many industries out there, I don't understand why we keep glorifying and romanticizing manufacturing and trying to "bring it back." Depending on what you are manufacturing, it can be a very boring, stressful, stinky, physically taxing, or dangerous job. And it really doesn't pay well. It may have paid well 70 years ago, but it doesn't today, and you can't turn time back.
A lot of customer service and telemarketing jobs have gone offshore. Nobody is romanticizing about bringing them back. Same with textiles and clothing. Nobody is calling for a return of sewing sweatshops. So why does manufacturing win elections?
National security is the obvious reason. That includes the ability to switch to a wartime economy, which requires low-tech manufacturing and resource extraction to not be reliant (and thus vulnerable) on imports from potential adversaries. Maintaining a talent pipeline is also important, we’re not going to be able to produce enough high skill machinists quickly enough when we need them because that takes time.
Manufacturing capital is primarily the value of onshoring manufacturing, the labor itself may not be particularly valuable at present, but the ability to repurpose it quickly is valuable. It would take the US much longer to build up the kind of manufacturing infrastructure and capital required to be self-sufficient than it will take China to build up the talent infrastructure and intellectual capital required to replace the US. China has no shortage of intelligent and driven people.
Advanced manufacturing (mainly thinking of semiconductors but there are other areas) is increasing in value with AI development, and has been increasingly valuable with prior digitization. It was a mistake for prior (pre-CHIPS) US administrations to not subsidize it.
There are other good reasons: not everyone in society can be upskilled. You need jobs for the lower and middle class that afford them decent lives. Only having high skill high education jobs and low skill low education jobs leaves people in the middle with limited opportunities for economic mobility.
The best national security is for it to be in the interest of the counter party to trade with you rather than attack you.
Tariffs and protectionism tilt the favor closer to attack. In the extreme, a nation that completely refuses to trade can't offer nor take anything beyond spoils of war.
> The best national security is for it to be in the interest of the counter party to trade with you rather than attack you.
Sure, but if your biggest export is your country's particular flavor of monopoly money, is it actually in your counterparty's best interests to trade with you?
Why do I need to trade with you when I can just rob you blind at gunpoint? What you're describing isn't sufficient leverage because you won't have jurisdiction to control trade in the future.
Others have mentioned geopolitical priorities like self-sufficiency or wartime economics, but I'd like to focus on the popular-opinion side of things.
It's misguided nostalgia: People recall a time of high wages which co-occurred with certain industries/jobs and strong labor unions. [0]
They (reasonably) want that kind of high earning-power to return... but incorrectly assume (A) the same products/processes are still highly profitable/scalable and (B) that they'll somehow (re-)capture a big slice of any pie without (re-)unionizing.
That is a very good reason for trade barriers, much better than the trade deficit. And the barriers could be introduced in a far less disruptive manner, that allows companies to plan long-term. So I guess whoever stresses the US trade deficit, does not really care about national security, otherwise they would say so directly.
I think it's because if you tour through the US, you'll come across hundreds of cities that are completly abandoned and rotting that all used to manufacture items. It's hard not to wonder what happened. Instead of working at those hard but well-paying jobs, those people get to work at walmart for minimum wage.
But how many would still be around without the outsourcing? It's a convenient thing for the politicians to blame but the reality is that most jobs have been lost to machines, not overseas.
Because self-sufficiency is a prerequisite of control. “Things” are as essential as food or drinking water or energy in our modern world. Imagine if your country was reliant on another nation for all your food and water: they would have total control over you.
Modern manufacturing is not like the factories of old. Go to China and tour some modern factories: you’ll be surprised. It doesn’t pay well _in the US, in 2025_ because it’s a dying industry. They could easily rise: manufacturing wages are a tiny cost of the sticker price of anything you buy today. Wages have been rising significantly in China for years with little impact to overall product costs. But that’s because they have a competitive manufacturing industry; no US factory owner is going to invest in top talent for a dying factory that has been uncompetitive for a decade.
China wouldn't be the number 2 economy and massively increasing in global power, military, and technology if domestic manufacturing wasn't valuable and important. The US itself wouldn't have risen to preeminent global power and technology center if not for post-WW2 being worlds manufacturer and supplier.
Beyond national security or nostalgia, there's also simply the issue of skill and expertise. Factories are full of people actually working the tools, materials and processes. This is where generational experience forms— people learn a lot when they're actually hands-on. Tim Cook famously said they don't manufacture in China because of the low labour cost, but the quantity of skill (specifically, in the case of Apple, with advanced tooling and materials) [1].
This skill becomes innovation, quality, etc. and before you know it you're not inventing and designing devices for other people to build. You're buying devices designed, invented and built somewhere else.
I would also note that admiring and romanticizing capital over labour IMO is common in the USA than in other countries. I'd guess it's because the rest of the world saw some level of marxist influence that led to the formation of still-existing labour parties in the least, while the USA prosecuted marxism pretty strongly. Beyond how effective this marxist wave actually was in achieving better conditions for laborers, I'd say it at least did generally lead to ideological effects.
The general ideas that there's dignity in all work, that any job should pay a living wage, that money isn't the end all, that laborers deserve recognition, etc— I've noticed all those to be more prevalent outside the USA. Admiring people who make a lot of money with little work, or not working and living off rents, or wealth irrespective of the means to achieve it, etc— I've noticed that moreso in the USA.
So overall, you're right— I'm sure a lot of people in the USA wont actually want those jobs with how little protections labour has and how much people admire earning good money with little effort. Though nonetheless, I also believe there's a sector of the population —perhaps not in HN— that would appreciate those jobs.
I see it as a kind of misdirection, whether accidental or deliberate: Make the average person blame their malaise on the blend of industries, rather than their lack of bargaining power in the ones that exist.
Like all the nonsense about "bringing back coal" when the number of people working in it has been declining for a solid century for good reasons.
"If only we bring back buggy-whips, I'll be able to support a family like my pappy did."
> some segments of American men really glorify their work.
What should they glorify instead?
Being valued by a community? Consumerism and mobility has fragmented communities such that most Americans aren't part of any meaningful social institutions anymore. Secularism (which I think is overall a good thing) has cut off church as another aspect of community.
Being a good friend? Again consumerism and mobility has led to a massive loneliness epidemic with many men reporting they have zero close friends.
Venturing into the unknown and discovering new resources to bring back home? The map is fully painted in. The exploring that's left to do is in the deep reaches of science that requires massive education investment in order to spend years in a lab making a tiny discovery.
Going off to war and protecting the innocent against violent invaders? The last arguably justifiable war was nearly a century ago.
It's hard world to find dignity and meaning in today, especially for men in the US, and especially for ones who by personality lean as much towards using their body as their mind. The US used to offer them form or factory jobs that were, yes, hard and dangerous, but (at least in our romanticized memory of it) enabled them to come home at the end of the day and feel they'd provided some value.
Because manufacturing means widgets which has physical properties and dummies equate widgets with $$$. Software and services are too abstract and high falootin' and scary.
Neither will _modern_ manufacturing plants. Regardless, unemployment has not been a big problem in the US so far, and if you say that the recent mass gig/under employment is no longer sufficient for (american dream|middle class lifestyle|male ego), then the sweatshops and coal mines won't be better at all.
It doesn't matter. Even if zero new jobs are created, it still represents a capital investment in robots and lights-off factories to increase national security going forwards.
There wasn't an obsession. Trump just weaponized the word deficit to justify tarrifs. Anyone with an IQ over 100 and two minutes to listen to an explainer video on this would quickly understand the con.
As has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, the trade deficit does have a real negative impact on US industry. Whether or not that's good or bad for a particular person depends on their socioeconomic situation. One would reasonably assume that Trump's base is largely made up of folks for whom the trade deficit has real negative consequences.
Also, the often-mentioned US-EU trade deficit is not that big if you count in services. Which I think should be done in the 21st century. Large parts of the US economy are focused on digital high-value services, and they are "exported" worldwide.