> "I mean, I realize that no good comes from feeling bad about myself over it"
I have listened to a lot of Dr David Burns' podcasts[1] (and recommend them) and there is a relevant part here which I will try to explain enough to tempt you to look at it more, in the hope it helps[2]. He observed that patients came asking him to make their bad feelings go away but the more he tried, the more they held onto the bad feelings ever tighter. After years of this, he came to understand that there is good which comes from feeling bad and helping the patient see it makes them realise they don't want to get rid of the bad feelings after all, only tone down the intensity.
The crux is: what kind of person would notice someone feeling suicidal and do nothing and learn the person suicided and then not feel bad or even feel good? Someone with no compassion who doesn't care about other people's suffering, someone with no moral compass, someone who takes no responsibility, someone who doesn't value living over dying, someone who thinks their actions in the world are meaningless, someone with no agency who needs other people to solve everything for them, someone who holds themselves to very low standards, someone selfish who doesn't want to help other people, someone cruel, etc. etc. Some of these things may resonate with you and those reveal things you value and like about yourself:
- feeling guilty shows I care about other people suffering. ("is that important to you?")
- regretting my choice to do nothing shows I am introspective, reflective, striving to do better. ("is that something you value?")
- wishing I had tried shows I value being helpful instead of selfish. ("and do you value that?")
- feeling that it's a bit my fault shows I want to take responsibility for my behaviour and don't shirk it and seek to blame everyone else. ("is that a trait you respect in others and want in yourself?")
- etc. for each of those things (and more).
OK if you can magically stop feeling bad at the push of a button, but the monkeypaw cost is that you become the uncaring, nihilistic, selfish, lazy, ignorer-of-suffering, who never reflects, lives on autopilot, never wants to do better... do you push the button? After finding some positive sides of your specific feelings which are things you specifically care about, you stop wanting to get rid of the feelings and grok that the good which comes from negative feelings is them protecting traits you value and want to keep[3]. Having negative feelings is not the problem, having them dialled up to 11 is the problem. You want to keep the feelings around as the guiding angel on your shoulder, just less intense. More of Dr Burns' work is on the therapy methods to make that change and dial the intensity down to a level you think would be a reminder, a guide, not a tormentor, but the insight in seeing principles you really do value hiding in the silver lining is sometimes enough to relax the feelings by itself.
> "It feels like the universe was giving me a character test, and it feels like I failed it. I would like to think that when push comes to shove, I'd do the right thing, at least in regards to someone's life being on the line, but I guess at some fundamental level that's simply not true, or at least it wasn't in 2021."
We aren't born perfect, and then fail the tests so the universe can laugh at us failing. We are born sinners and the test-driven-development helps us develop. It wasn't true in 2021 and the bad feeling is trying to be an adjustement which makes it more likely to be true from then on, but stuck on hard-lock. You're wishing to get rid of the bad feeling, the more you push it away the more it gets louder to try and make you hear it. Be guided by it, agree with it, then it's job is done and it can quieten down.
[2] (Please excuse me being lecturing; it's all I know how to write. It has a nice 'understanding and debugging a system' feel which I like and keep hoping will resonate on HN)
[3] """During this phase, the therapist, paradoxically, does NOT try to “help” the patient, but instead assumes the voice of the patient’s subconscious resistance, helping the patient suddenly “see” why she or he actually should NOT change. Paradoxically, the moment the patient “gets it,” there will be an illumination, and the patient will suddenly lose his or her resistance and become way more open and collaborative. This what makes the rapid recovery in TEAM-CBT possible. The patient also discovers, paradoxically, that his or her symptoms, like depression, hopelessness, and feelings of worthlessness, anxiety, or rage, are NOT the expression of what is wrong with him or her, like a “mental disorder” or “chemical imbalance in the brain--but the manifestation of what is right with him or her."""
I have listened to a lot of Dr David Burns' podcasts[1] (and recommend them) and there is a relevant part here which I will try to explain enough to tempt you to look at it more, in the hope it helps[2]. He observed that patients came asking him to make their bad feelings go away but the more he tried, the more they held onto the bad feelings ever tighter. After years of this, he came to understand that there is good which comes from feeling bad and helping the patient see it makes them realise they don't want to get rid of the bad feelings after all, only tone down the intensity.
The crux is: what kind of person would notice someone feeling suicidal and do nothing and learn the person suicided and then not feel bad or even feel good? Someone with no compassion who doesn't care about other people's suffering, someone with no moral compass, someone who takes no responsibility, someone who doesn't value living over dying, someone who thinks their actions in the world are meaningless, someone with no agency who needs other people to solve everything for them, someone who holds themselves to very low standards, someone selfish who doesn't want to help other people, someone cruel, etc. etc. Some of these things may resonate with you and those reveal things you value and like about yourself:
- feeling guilty shows I care about other people suffering. ("is that important to you?")
- regretting my choice to do nothing shows I am introspective, reflective, striving to do better. ("is that something you value?")
- wishing I had tried shows I value being helpful instead of selfish. ("and do you value that?")
- feeling that it's a bit my fault shows I want to take responsibility for my behaviour and don't shirk it and seek to blame everyone else. ("is that a trait you respect in others and want in yourself?")
- etc. for each of those things (and more).
OK if you can magically stop feeling bad at the push of a button, but the monkeypaw cost is that you become the uncaring, nihilistic, selfish, lazy, ignorer-of-suffering, who never reflects, lives on autopilot, never wants to do better... do you push the button? After finding some positive sides of your specific feelings which are things you specifically care about, you stop wanting to get rid of the feelings and grok that the good which comes from negative feelings is them protecting traits you value and want to keep[3]. Having negative feelings is not the problem, having them dialled up to 11 is the problem. You want to keep the feelings around as the guiding angel on your shoulder, just less intense. More of Dr Burns' work is on the therapy methods to make that change and dial the intensity down to a level you think would be a reminder, a guide, not a tormentor, but the insight in seeing principles you really do value hiding in the silver lining is sometimes enough to relax the feelings by itself.
> "It feels like the universe was giving me a character test, and it feels like I failed it. I would like to think that when push comes to shove, I'd do the right thing, at least in regards to someone's life being on the line, but I guess at some fundamental level that's simply not true, or at least it wasn't in 2021."
We aren't born perfect, and then fail the tests so the universe can laugh at us failing. We are born sinners and the test-driven-development helps us develop. It wasn't true in 2021 and the bad feeling is trying to be an adjustement which makes it more likely to be true from then on, but stuck on hard-lock. You're wishing to get rid of the bad feeling, the more you push it away the more it gets louder to try and make you hear it. Be guided by it, agree with it, then it's job is done and it can quieten down.
[1] https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/
[2] (Please excuse me being lecturing; it's all I know how to write. It has a nice 'understanding and debugging a system' feel which I like and keep hoping will resonate on HN)
[3] """During this phase, the therapist, paradoxically, does NOT try to “help” the patient, but instead assumes the voice of the patient’s subconscious resistance, helping the patient suddenly “see” why she or he actually should NOT change. Paradoxically, the moment the patient “gets it,” there will be an illumination, and the patient will suddenly lose his or her resistance and become way more open and collaborative. This what makes the rapid recovery in TEAM-CBT possible. The patient also discovers, paradoxically, that his or her symptoms, like depression, hopelessness, and feelings of worthlessness, anxiety, or rage, are NOT the expression of what is wrong with him or her, like a “mental disorder” or “chemical imbalance in the brain--but the manifestation of what is right with him or her."""