People want things to be easy. I feel like there is a startup opportunity here to manage peoples connections to more federated services. Give them an easy 1 place to log into Bluesky, Mastodon, Pixelfed, etc if you want me to get off of Twitter and Instagram.
Or more broadly, syndication as a service. The user picks what service or services they want their hub/s to be, and the startup handles auth/accounts/publishing/etc with whatever other services they want to broadcast to.
I've never had a Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Myspace whatevertheF account and I've never felt like I was missing out. Social media can be great, if by social media you mean: something like IRC/Discord, or something ultra-simplistic like HN. Anything else and you're making a bad trade.
People keep trying to find a way to have their cake and eat it too, despite decades of clearly seeing that you can't. I'm starting to become very tired of this victim-mentality that demands the convenience of highly centralized, moderated, and connected algorithmic social media, but ALSO want it to be run the way they think it should be.
The whole point of the article is that significant numbers of other people being in the memetic cage will affect you, regardless of whether you yourself see through it.
This article makes it sound like private companies are the ones doing the manipulation. That's not the problem.
The problem is that anyone in the world with enough interest and very little resources can influence the thoughts and actions of large groups of people. Adtech has built these tools to manipulate people into opening their wallets, yet the same tools can be used for much sinister purposes. Everything from propaganda to election interference to destabilizing a nation from the inside out. It's pretty evident that the sociopolitical instability we've been seeing for more than a decade now in not just the US, but many western countries, is in large part the product of domestic and foreign operations carried out to fulfil some agenda.
Social media companies are not in control. They're in the data market business because the business is boomin', and they can't (nor won't) control who uses their tools because it would be bad for business.
The only way any of this might improve is with government regulations. But considering that governments are in symbiosis with Big Tech, which is nowhere clearer than in the US now, and that at this point the public considers these services essential, judging only by the pushback against banning an app built by a political adversary, the chance any regulations will hit Big Tech is slim to none.
America is doomed, but they shit their bed and now must lie in it.
First, these are not private companies for the same reason that there is not a real market in which these people operate. They receive preferential loans of debt issuance without reserve, from a money printer. They are propped up by the state who controls money printing, and thus are state actors, and left to a logical end would result in a collapse to non-market socialism before annihilation.
They are performing manipulation wholesale in ways that inevitably break cognition, segmenting people into two groups, and this most certainly is a very real problem. The apathetic non-responsive, and induced psychosis and insanity are inherently chaotic.
Given sufficient exposure to psychological stress, only these two groups remain, and rational thought it lost, this is well established.
Government regulation with captive regulators, simply doesn't work, so you are correct only insofar as that there is a symbiosis, but its not stable.
> America is doomed, but they shit their bed and now must lie in it
This is demoralized self-hate. There are things people can do. There are still patriots that embody the same values as the founding fathers. While many of the systems are broken, even if it were to all break, those people would still exist and their actions would carry more weight than the falsehoods promoted today. They could easily rebuild following those principles without the dead weight.
America exists in the hearts and values of its 'true' citizens. There are those who believe they are American citizens, and born here, but they were taught and raised under false ideology from a young vulnerable age, and continue maladaptive behavior moving forward. They were not taught founding principles based in rationalism in any meaningful way, some were taught but most weren't.
There exist structural defects in the actions and circumstances now that are being taken, that intelligent and rational people can take advantage of if they so chose, but it would accelerate the decline of the failure of society rapidly, causing it to fail under its own weight.
When society fails, it falls back to the natural laws, which in the context of the social contract are violence and destruction, not something to look forward to for the unprepared.
When society fails, importantly so does the means to organize production, and with that the dependencies needed for the vast majority of people to feed themselves fail. A fallback to last century farming technology would mean half the global population dies, and this will eventually happen through no action taken by any party because of these structural defects, and a brittle dependency tree.
In a word, America does have hope so long as its people retain their values, which are based most heavily in objective rationalism.
The important part for people today is that they do not become so insane as to engage in MAD doctrine when the efforts which were known to be intractable and fail result in such failures. If someone were to push a button, and destroy everything not because of an existential threat, but because there is no path forward because doomed practices lead to doomed outcomes. That's the threat we all must face, the people willing to hold everyone hostage who are unable themselves to adapt.
The if I can't have it no one can, childish, delusional, and insane mentality, that psychological stress (and torture) bring to people unknowingly.
The future is far from certain. Claiming its doomed is either that of an adversary, or a demoralized individual in great need of help and support. The future is not going to be a nice one for our children, and many parasites will likely not survive, which is why its important to learn what you need to be useful to others in common cause.
As for the state actors engaging in these activities. In positive feedback situations, business can win so much that they lose everything. It has happened before, and it will happen again, until people learn and take appropriate action.
This is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they're private companies or heavily supported by the state, the effect of their operations remains the same. The symbiosis I mention is merely in relation to what it would take to dig the US out of this mess. To the extent that a corporatocracy exists only makes fixing things more difficult, but this is not the main problem.
> There are still patriots that embody the same values as the founding fathers.
How will patriotism help if both sides of the political spectrum believe they're the "true" patriots and that the other side are traitors who seek to destroy their way of life?
> America exists in the hearts and values of its 'true' citizens.
Riiiight. Who decides who the "true" citizens are?
> America does have hope so long as its people retain their values, which are based most heavily in objective rationalism.
We can't even agree on an objective truth, let alone rationalism. Objectivity and rationalism take a back seat in times of war. When the other side wants to destroy you, you fight for survival using any means necessary.
In the case of America, this division has always existed. It's only been exacerbated by the platforms built by Big Tech, but it wasn't orchestrated by them. They have no control over the information spread on their platforms, and their only interest is extracting as much value as possible from their users.
The only way this has any chance of improving is by first stopping the disinformation campaigns from polluting the minds of citizens, and then working on "healing the divide" through clear and honest dialogue, and whatever psyops necessary to reverse the damage. This would take many years and several generations, just as it did to cause it.
> The future is far from certain. Claiming its doomed is either that of an adversary, or a demoralized individual in great need of help and support.
My claim is that the US as we know it today is doomed. I certainly can't predict the future, but I don't see how the problems we're seeing today can be resolved, given the US is not even capable of accepting that this might be a source of the problem, let alone willing to take actions to mitigate it. So this can only continue to get worse, especially now with Musk and Trump at the helm.
How exactly this will play out is anyone's guess. My bet is on an all out civil war, with the country splitting in two. This is precisely what your enemies want, so it would be naive to think that these aren't the effects of an orchestrated attack. My only hope is that this doesn't result in a global conflict, but it's clear that your enemies would want to take advantage of this situation.
But hey, if thinking that values, rationalism and patriotism will get you out of this mess, I hope you're right. Good luck in any case.
It is relevant because it shows not just a symbiosis, but a mixing of the two groups where they are effectively the same group. Its important context.
> How will patriotism help if both sides of the political spectrum believe they're the "true" patriots and that the other side are traitors who seek to destroy their way of life.
Belief alone is worthless, you can believe something is true and in the face of objective truth know it is not. The thing that matters is whether reality shows its true or not. The requires objective measure, something ideology alone does not have but rationalism does.
> Riiight. Who decides who the "true" citizens are?
Unlike communism, and socialism, there is no decision from a central authority who the true citizens are. It comes down to objective reality and whether your actions show conformance to the founding father's principles.
These are Faith, Freedom, Self-sufficiency, Independence, and no taxation without legitimate representation, which applies equally to the monetary matters as it does to personal cost and coercion.
> We can't even agree on an objective truth, let alone rationalism.
Rational people can agree on objective truth because the truth is the truth, its based in objective measure, and regardless of what someone says it doesn't change the fact that X happened, there are people who can delude themselves certainly, but these people aren't true citizens, they've become no better than parasites.
There are a large number of people who seem silent only because the loudspeakers of social media and big tech have drowned out these people. They are still talking, but you, and many others have ignored them and blinded yourselves. That's a problem.
You are mistaken, the division today has not always existed, it was fostered through indoctrination, and other subtle manipulations over many generations following destructive false ideology. Important education was withheld, and the masses today are diminished. Philosophy and Critical Thinking used to be taught in what would normally be at the start of 4th grade.
> The only way this has any chance of improving is by first stopping the disinformation campaigns from polluting the minds of citizens, and then working on "healing the divide".
That is a rigid pipe-dream where it will never come to pass its a pigeonhole for an impossible to solve problem. Luckily it doesn't need to be solved.
The defects of such systems are failures where the weight and dynamics of those systems destroy the system itself. After the self-perpetuating dynamics of destruction have destroyed such systems, improvement will naturally occur, for those that survive.
> My claim is that the US as we know it today is doomed.
I disagree, because the important part is still present, just not in control. All this important part needs to do is get out of the way, and then build back better after those that held everyone else down take their boots off everyone's neck.
> How exactly this will play out is anyone's guess.
It will be the same as any major empire's fall. You can look to the history of Rome for an accurate picture, keeping in mind that unlike Rome the currency will ultimately fail by 2030-2032 at the same time, where independent producers will no longer be capable of making a profit and shut down, collapsing to non-market socialism and perpetual shortage, undermining all state efforts.
There will be communities based in those founding values that thrive in such grim times, because they are not dependent, they produce, and such communities will necessarily defend themselves and their sovereignty absent a rule of law (with is what we have today), in the only way possible.
The irony is, our external enemies don't need to lift a finger because they've infected the bureaucracy as any destructive parasite does, but the ideology they use blinds them and causes them to naturally neglect through the same willful blindness the dependency they have on us for economic calculation price data.
A socialist calculation problem manifesting globally, chaotically by its very nature, will inevitably make productive organization impossible in all un-sheltered communities. It destroys everything, and that is the insanity of this adversarial plan in which these enemies have engaged in over such a long period of time. Only an insane person will bring everything to the brink, and then unknowingly step over willingly having done so.
Rationalism provides the toolset to accurately predict the objective mechanics of reality, and by doing so predict the future, and nudge towards positive beneficial outcomes.
If one can't recognize reality, these people can't be anything more than a slave or prisoner (a Suki), without honor or worth.
> Belief alone is worthless, you can believe something is true and in the face of objective truth know it is not. The thing that matters is whether reality shows its true or not.
Again, what "objective truth"? In the age of disinformation, objectivity doesn't exist. There are only subjective "truths", where whoever has the most influence and reach decides what reality is for everyone else. Belief is the only thing that matters at this time.
> Unlike communism, and socialism, there is no decision from a central authority who the true citizens are.
There's not much difference from late-stages of capitalism and any other system. Power is centralized, an oligarchy rises to the top, disinformation and censorship are rampant, etc.
> It comes down to objective reality and whether your actions show conformance to the founding father's principles.
I find it amusing that Americans fetishize their founding fathers so much. These were fallible humans who lived in an entirely different world from ours. The system you enjoy today required dozens of amendments, reforms and revolutions over hundreds of years, yet what some rich politicians thought in the 18th century is held in highest regard, for some reason.
> Rational people can agree on objective truth because the truth is the truth, its based in objective measure, and regardless of what someone says it doesn't change the fact that X happened
Please. The world went through an epidemic that killed millions. Do you know the objective truth about what caused it?
Was there foreign election interference in the 2020 election? Were the January 6th riots an attempt to overthrow the government? Is Donald Trump guilty of any of the crimes he was charged with, or was it a "witch hunt", "fake news", etc.? Is Elon Musk a Nazi or did he just make an awkward gesture? Was Epstein suicided? Was Pizzagate accurate? How about QAnon?
These examples are neverending.
You can call people who believe in conspiracy theories delusional and "parasites", but the fact is everyone is susceptible to psychological manipulation, regardless of their political inclination or ideology. You're not above it all and don't get to claim what the objective truth is. This is what disinformation ultimately causes.
> You are mistaken, the division today has not always existed
I'm not well versed in US history, but I do know that the precursors for the Civil War accrued over decades during the first half of the 19th century. Perhaps even before that. So, yes, the division was there since arguably the inception, and it never went away. It was just supressed, with occasional outbursts over time, but always ready to be reignited.
> That is a rigid pipe-dream where it will never come to pass its a pigeonhole for an impossible to solve problem. Luckily it doesn't need to be solved.
I agree with the first sentence. Disagree with the second if you wish to preserve your current union. If not, then sure, it doesn't need to be solved.
> It will be the same as any major empire's fall.
I'm confused. You disagree with my claim that America is doomed, yet agree that the empire will fall in the near future.
To save us both some time: we disagree on whether disinformation is a problem, and whether and how it should be solved. I don't think either of us will change our mind about this, but cheers for the chat.
The article details the problems succinctly, and then finishes with a question about behavior. We as HN audience have the tendency to think about technical solutions to societal problems. Partly because that is what we are good at, partly because we have difficulty seeing the greater picture. We feel powerless as tech-ability is not a real currency in real life, like social skills. And so nihilism creeps in.
Instead of grasping to technological changes, ask yourself what basic limits should serve as guard rail for the application of tech. If social media are a net loss to mental health, if they pump around unprecedented amounts of fake information, if they replace real, livid interactions with real and diverse people, if they destroy the fabric of society and thus increase misery, if they fill your living years with fake emotions, all those things just to give some more advertisement dollars to some nihilists that are bored to death will all that money and now want to own all of you, will you still say: ah, I cannot do anything about it?
My 2ct: present the bill to the oligarchs. A public space is property of the public, not some billionaires. Outlaw all the negatives consequences. You will keep some fora for wood working enthusiast, some communities for hardware tinkerers, some sites about knitting, the good old internet. That's it.
A simple first step is to remove section 230 protections from any platform that utilizes algorithmic filtering.
Allowing users to do their own filtering is pretty hands-off, and basic moderation is necessary for most online platforms to function, but providing tailor-made echo chambers for each user goes way too far into curation to reasonably claim the platform bears no responsibility for its content.
This isn't going to have the affect you think it. Between bots spreading propaganda and users addicted to ragebait, it's just going to make people angrier thus increasing engagement which is what companies want.
