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> Very different worlds, with pros and cons in each.

Which results in a higher quality of life for a person, all else being equal?



It's hard to compare, it's almost like apples to oranges. A big part of it might just be personal preference. From my experience, having a forced, tight-knit social fabric is very frustrating in the day-to-day, but I think it's probably better in the long-term.

It's frustrating because you do not get as much privacy, "freedom", and flexibility. There is a lot of drama, as your business is everyone's business and vice-versa. Things you do can bring pride or shame to your family/friends/etc.

That said, in the long-term, not being insulated is probably much healthier, and on the bad days / bad times, there are always people there for support (be it emotional, or if you actually need someone to help out financially or otherwise). You're never alone, and it's during the bad times that you appreciate not being alone.

Personally, I find that I enjoy the ability to choose the social connections (which ones, and how deep) you make in the US. But, when I think about what I want for my kids... it's definitely the social fabric.


Having experienced both, I think individualism brings more freedom and independence which is crucial for some/most people.The cost is losing this tribal connection that gives you some sense of belonging and safety which fulfills the urge to be part of something. That's of course theoretically. In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions.


> In practice, the extended family is mostly a pain and a way to oppress individuals with different opinions.

You're kind of repeating yourself there. That seems like the cost of taking the individualist track, experienced from the perspective of the individualist.


Having experienced similar, individualism is superior, it allows the person to develop to their fullest extent. There is a lot of infantilism that comes with a traditional way of life.

They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population


>They optimize for different things . Individualism: human progress and breaking the boundaries. Traditionalism: extending the family population

Well Said!


How do you swuare this with the wide-scale infantilization of westerners in the last 30 years? What do you think changed?


Its no surprise that the infantized westerners in question are in highly collectivist subcultures (Twitter/College communists, etc)


Wow that is a neat way to look at it.


> Which results in a higher quality of life for a person

Neither: a balanced spot in the middle is what you find in happy societies, and it makes sense from a PoV of psychology.

Strong collectivism harms individual's creativity and ability to develop.

Rugged individualism... we all know about the mental health and loneliness crisis in US. See the recent school shootings.


I've had opportunity to live with and become a part of two different branches of my family at different points in my life.

One side of the family was somewhat dysfunctional, and more importantly didn't suit my personality, interests, and to some extent my worldview. While it did have some of the positives I'll mention below, overall, being part of this family felt like a minor thorn on my side. Like having an annoying neighbour.

The other side of the family was much more functional (existing members were well-connected together), and suited me much better too (so the potential for me to form a new connection was strong too). And I realized how comforting such connections are, how much mental stability they give you. The "being part of a whole" experience was significant and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain wants your legs to do well; when any one of you had a problem, it was automatically something for everyone to try and chip in to fix (in a way qualitatively different from most friendships).

But to make this work, there needs to be constant honest communication between the members (which can feel like people poking their nose into your business when you're not getting the benefits from it), and you have to be willing to imbibe some of the shared culture of the community (so that, for eg., there's some agreement on what's good/bad for the community). The second part can be particularly difficult for children of immigrants trying to assimilate into a larger family (who are often the ones that get to experience this family-oriented lifestyle as a new thing), as there's not only the usual generational cultural difference, but also the larger fundamental cultural difference between the traditions of different parts of the world.


    The "being part of a whole" experience was significant 
    and strong: when any of you did well, the collective-you 
    was doing well, and so you wanted it like your brain 
    wants your legs to do well
One of the strongest (completely natural) "highs" I've experienced is playing team sports and completely abandoning my ego, while others did the same. One organism working toward a common goal.

I would imagine that playing in a (cohesive, unselfish) band or an orchestra is much the same. Or acting in a play, etc.

I have experienced this at work as well over the years, but much more fleetingly.


No question that it is Western Individualism in today's Time and Context.

However it is not sustainable in the long run since we live in a Shared Planet with Finite Resources. A Happy equilibrium needs to be found.




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