No need to apologize, I appreciate the thoughtful (and passionate) reply.
To clarify one of my points: when I said the terms of the deal have changed I didn’t mean just for animals. The existence of plant-based alternatives for every type of animal product has also changed the terms for us. We no longer need domesticated animals, even if we maintain our agricultural ways.
I also agree with you about unfettered capitalism but I am not sold on the idea that the treatment of animals outside the capitalist system is a utopia. I have seen how animals are treated in developing nations (Cuba and Morocco come to mind) and it’s ugly: scrawny donkeys whipped by their masters. Live chickens bound to one another by their feet next to a heap of dead chickens in a market. Etc.
When it comes to the kindly attitude some farmers have, yes, I’ve seen this myself. My family still eats meat, I ensure we buy it from local farmers like that. I think many of these people feel sad about killing the animals when the day comes, but they justify it with rationale like, “well, there’s no way around it”, or, “that’s the natural order of things”, “people need to eat”, or whatever. But today, in 2021, those rationale are not accurate. There are ways around it, there are other options, and humans are no longer part of the natural order.
You're right that animals are not only treated inhumanely in CAFOs, I have seen
that kind of thing too. Even simple things, like killing a chicken before
cutting its throat seem to never cross some peoples' minds. It's a different
problem that has to do with education and generally standards of living and I
think in the end it all loops back to the main reason that some people lack
basic education, not to mention many other material needs: capitalism, again
(and now I sound like a broken record). But again that's not the case
everywhere. It is possible to raise animals without causing unnecessary
suffering and it does happen, around the world.
I think we agree on the need, or the want even, to minimise suffering. Maybe we
disagree on what that entails? I think that small-scale farming can achieve
this, which of course means that much of the world will need to eat much less
meat and even (gulp!) dairy products than currently.
I don't agree that we're not part of the natural order, but that's a bigger
conversation I think.
Yeah, thanks for the level-headed discussion also.
To clarify one of my points: when I said the terms of the deal have changed I didn’t mean just for animals. The existence of plant-based alternatives for every type of animal product has also changed the terms for us. We no longer need domesticated animals, even if we maintain our agricultural ways.
I also agree with you about unfettered capitalism but I am not sold on the idea that the treatment of animals outside the capitalist system is a utopia. I have seen how animals are treated in developing nations (Cuba and Morocco come to mind) and it’s ugly: scrawny donkeys whipped by their masters. Live chickens bound to one another by their feet next to a heap of dead chickens in a market. Etc.
When it comes to the kindly attitude some farmers have, yes, I’ve seen this myself. My family still eats meat, I ensure we buy it from local farmers like that. I think many of these people feel sad about killing the animals when the day comes, but they justify it with rationale like, “well, there’s no way around it”, or, “that’s the natural order of things”, “people need to eat”, or whatever. But today, in 2021, those rationale are not accurate. There are ways around it, there are other options, and humans are no longer part of the natural order.
Thanks for engaging. ;)