I’ll go deeper still. It’s why we’re social animals. Trust is the foundation of secure relationships and secure relationships keep us safe. Cities wouldn’t exist if it were every man for themself.
Yeah, for sure I believe that cities, walls, friendships, food chains, economies, armies, language… this all rests on meeting the basic human needs of shelter (security from elements and hostile actors), food (security from starvation), community (security of a support network).
It looks like there's a sample size minimum - I looked at the older reports as I'm looking into buying a used car, and it seems like there's a floor around 100,000 registered vehicle-years. Mazdas don't sell particularly well, so it makes sense that there are any that pass that threshold. There are Mazdas on the previous report, though - https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
This is a solved problem - don't consume animal products. Doing so causes cancer in the consumer [1], untold suffering for the human producers, who are often children [2], and the deaths of billions of animals per year in the US alone. [3]
If we weren’t meant to eat animals then why are they made of meat?
Seriously though, it’s your choice how you live your life, but there’s no escaping that humans are omnivores and should eat both plants and animals for proper nutrition. The problem is that a lot of human diets go to heavy on the animals. I know that you can replace animal protein in your diet with several plant based supplements, but that is far from ideal or natural.
> Seriously though, it’s your choice how you live your life, but there’s no escaping that humans are omnivores and should eat both plants and animals for proper nutrition
There are millions of vegetarians and vegans around the world.
I happen to be a vegan and I have no intention of ever switching back to eating animal food, but being vegan comes with significant disadvantages.
I do not consider that buying plant protein extracts that are five times more expensive than chicken meat is an acceptable way of being vegan.
If that is excluded, then very few possibilities remain for ensuring an adequate daily protein intake without a simultaneous energy intake that would make me gain weight very quickly.
The consequence is that a fraction of my daily food menu is pretty much fixed, with little variation from day to day. The remainder of the food, which is chosen from various vegetables and fruits with little energy content, can be very varied, but nonetheless, on average what I eat as a vegan is noticeably less varied than before, because in comparison with a diet that includes animal food there are many constraints for ensuring enough proteins, vitamins and minerals, which limit the free choice of food and which require some planing of what to eat.
While this does not really bother me, there are many people who, especially when young, would not find acceptable to have to deal with such constraints.
Interesting, thanks. Lab grown meat has been authorized in the U.S. and already served in a restaurant in San Francisco [1]. If you have the chance to consume lab grown meat, would that be an option for you?
In theory, I would find lab grown meat as a perfectly acceptable food.
In practice, it would very hard for any company which makes any kind of highly processed food to make me trust their products, unless they would be extremely transparent and they would disclose their production process with a lot of details.
Obviously, for a new kind of food the producer might want to keep secret many details, but that would not be acceptable for me. There are many things that I buy without caring much about how they are made, but for anything that I introduce in my body I have to know the exact chemical composition and also the manufacturing process, to be able to assess its safety. If I could afford my own analytical lab, I would not care much about what the producer publishes, but as it is I need to see credible disclosures about everything that influences what ends in the sold product.
The second problem, after having adequate information about any kind of food, is that I would not buy any kind of staple food unless it is either produced locally or else it can be imported from many different countries. The rules for something essential like meat are obviously not the same as for a candy bar or for an exotic fruit, which are optional food items.
For a non-US citizen, to become dependent on some food produced in USA would be extremely stupid, because in recent years USA has demonstrated repeatedly that they can stop exporting any product at any time, despite any prior commitments or declarations, whenever they feel like it.
Before successfully switching to a vegan diet I would have been much more interested in news about lab-grown meat, but now, after managing to completely substitute meat, even if with the price of less varied menus, I would be much less enthusiastic about it.
I am skeptical that lab-grown meat will be produced with acceptable efficiency in the near future, by using the current methods. Acceptable efficiency implies a cost similar to chicken meat.
On the contrary, I believe that some kind of lab-grown food will become dominant in the future, but in a more distant future, perhaps a century from now.
The most efficient way to make food would be to capture the solar energy with photovoltaic cells and use it to reduce the carbon dioxide and dinitrogen from air, using water, and make a simple organic compound, e.g. a simple amino-acid.
Then this organic compound could be used to feed, together with minerals, some cultures of genetically engineered living beings derived from fungi or from parasitic plants, hybridized with various genetic material of vegetable or animal origin, and which would grow harvestable parts equivalent with the meat, seeds, fruits, roots, leaves etc. that are used now for food.
I have little doubt that this is the final solution, but we are still very far from it. The greatest obstacle is that we are far from being able to predict how changes in the DNA modify the growth of a multicellular living being. We need to be able to predict what genetic changes are needed in order to make a modified plant that will grow either beans or apples or muscles or whatever else is the intended product of the culture.
Until then, I prefer to eat only food that I cook myself, from raw ingredients, so I can be certain about its content.
Sure they do. Let the modern experts tell us the proper diet we've been apparently doing wrong for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years. A little note: pretty sure all of those were not only rolled back but found that 'modern' diets are harmful: what a surprise.
I invite you to eat the bugs and stop bothering other people what to eat. Likewise, the "food pyramid" popularized from the 1990s has been factually wrong and even harmful to males especially, and only recent studies which have been analyzing the problem for 5-10+ years have been able to 'uncover' this.
People are kidding themselves if they don't understand that >most< of the 'eat the bugs' and 'stop animal suffering' aren't schemes and attempts (make no mistake, of the rich and the 'elite') to transition industries because we(as in the west) have been losing the industry apparatus, especially the food one. Does not mean there are no 'legitimate' movements or people who actually care, but most of them don't, they're just made to believe they do. Same goes for the green push, oh but here come the downvotes...
> attempts (make no mistake, of the rich and the 'elite') to transition industries because we(as in the west) have been losing the industry apparatus
The meatpacking industry is challenged due to a labor shortage from the growing anti-immigration sentiment and overzealous ICE policing. The extra border restrictions during the pandemic played a part as well. Can't say any of those are that popular with the vegan crowd. (I guess there are always a few outliers.)
sebow, thank you for bringing up the "Food Pyramid" Scheme. I was challenged for a source when I made a recent comment like yours. Here's an investigative documentary with plenty of insight. (CW: South Park and Grey's Anatomy clips, FLOTUS poetry slam, "cultured" "meat")
I come from a country infested by anti-choice/pro-life extremism and I like to reuse what I've seen and heard from them against radical vegans to give them a taste of their own medicine (regardless of my stance on any of those issues):
So, abortion causes deaths of millions upon millions of babies yearly, the victims are always innocent, there are numerous medical complications, and God's wrath on the world is imminent and inevitable if we don't stop doing this right now, everyone, no exceptions, not even thinking about it. If you disagree, you murder babies, you are a horrible person, and you are the direct reason for the destruction of humanity.
I do not believe that there should be any connection between being vegan and any pro-life/pro-choice opinion.
I am vegan, but at least for me this only means that I am against killing any living being, and especially any sentient living being, without a good reason.
Killing an animal because I want to eat something or killing a human because I need some cash are not good reasons.
Unfortunately, there are also good reasons for killing some living beings, including animals and even humans, whenever the alternatives are worse beyond any reasonable doubt.
I understand, but the example was more about the way of getting your point across. These are two examples of radical stances where adherents are absolutist and tolerate no dissent.
The only acceptable outcome of a conversation with an "outsider" is that they will switch sides and give up their lifestyle to broaden my cause.
Most Millenials who can afford to rent an apartment can afford to buy a condo in a city - maybe not SF or NY, but a studio condo on Chicago's North Side, or in older buildings in the Loop, can be had under $150k. A newer studio or older one-bedroom can be had under $200k. Sure, there's a HOA, but it usually includes some amenities; the key difference in affordability is the dramatically lower down payment (the largest barrier to home ownership for most young people) than a large suburban house. A mid-six-figure McMansion is in a completely different price class - especially when accounting for the heating, cooling, and insurance costs of the much larger home.
Most "American Slices" do contain dairy, as it is a USDA requirement for the classification of "pasteurized process cheese product" that there is at least some cheese in the product.
I have made some exceptional vegan cheesesteaks with marinated seitan and pumpkin puree + nutritional yeast "cheese" sauce. The key is the bread - if you can head to a local bakery for a proper fresh hoagie roll, the rest will follow. I personally like grilled onions and Bavarian mustard on mine. Fantastic sandwich - just don't put lettuce and tomato on yours!
A more charitable interpretation is that the quotes are around "American slices" because the dairy free ones aren't cheese. Dairy free imitations are well available.
As an American sleeper train enthusiast, my recs are:
- If you find yourself in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, the Nightjet is IMHO the best sleeper train in the world on balance. Between very reasonable fares, high hotel rates in the cities it serves, and mostly new rolling stock, it's a bargain.
- If you live on the East Coast or Midwestern US, there are several Amtrak services that are reasonably priced when booked well in advance (3-6 months). The City of New Orleans (from Chicago) or the silver services (two different NYC - Florida trains, but they take different routes through NC, SC, and GA) have much more reasonable fares than the Western routes.
- You can often get a good deal on Via Rail in Canada; they still allow you to book a single berth, and they regularly release promo fares for specific dates. The deals are available at https://www.viarail.ca/en/offers/sleeper-plus-class-deals/ and you can scroll down to see the dates and routes that there are savings on. The best deals are from the major cities in Canada (especially Montreal) to points East on the Ocean - you can get a discount private cabin from e.g. Montreal to Halifax, but you're SOL if you want to go to Vancouver in anything other than a berth. Book a Corridor to get to Montreal. These are best booked close-in, unlike Amtrak.
However, if you have the means, book a room(ette) on the Empire Builder in winter. It's simply incredible.
The sheer number of animals that are slaughtered to produce meat for human consumption is absolutely mind-boggling. In addition to the fish, humans killed 72 billion chickens, 3.3 billion ducks, 1.3 billion pigs, over a half-billion geese, turkeys, rabbits, sheep, and goats (each!), over 300 million cattle, and over 70 million rodents for food in 2019 alone [1].
Animal agriculture overall generates more CO2 emissions than every automobile, ship, and airplane on Earth - more carbon than the entire transportation sector. An overwhelming majority of arable land on this planet is used to feed those animals, fated to death from birth, rather than humans - in many developing countries, humans starve while livestock are plumped for slaughter and export. [2]. 75% of historic deforestation in the Amazon, 55% of erosion, 60% of nitrogen pollution, and 44% of anthropogenic methane and nitrous oxide emissions (each) are a direct result of animal agriculture [3].
If you live in the US, like I do, it's not just the animals and the environment that suffer under animal agriculture. It's an open secret that undocumented children are exploited to work in slaughterhouses in this country [4] while politicians are actively rolling back protections for those exploited children [5] to ensure that boneless skinless chicken breasts stay cheap at WalMart.
There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products, to make us feel righteous when we pay for corpses at the grocery store or restaurant. The only sane and ethical response to this devastation is to completely reject the economic exploitation of animals - to adopt a fully vegan philosophy. Of course, this does cause some difficulties in the modern context (especially in the US), but the trouble of learning to cook vegetables and seitan is nothing compared to the harm that animal agriculture causes to billions of humans and non-humans every year. (It also cured my high blood pressure and pre-diabetes in three months, but everyone knows vegetables are good for you :)
>>There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products
Yeah I absolutely don't agree. I don't believe it can be done at scale - but it can be done. Watch a channel like Harry's Farm on youtube - guy basically has cattle on moors where nothing else could possibly grow - they just stay there all year, eat grass, then one day they get slaughtered. There is nothing about farming them this way that's unsustainable.
>>The only sane and ethical response to this devastation is to completely reject the economic exploitation of animals - to adopt a fully vegan philosophy.
I think you might be getting too much of that "greenwashed" propaganda yourself friend.
We should be fighting against factory farming with all our might, and especially the US is a sad place when it comes to animal rights. But going out and saying it can't be done sustainably is a lie peddled by people who either literally can't imagine how it can be done, or who don't want to see it. I believe meat can be sustainably produced, but it should be reflected in its cost - people shouldn't be eating meat 3x times a day because it's so cheap.
Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total.
> but it can be done
We may also find farms where there are no animal inputs used. It can be done.
> it should be reflected in its cost - people shouldn't be eating meat 3x times a day
Removing all subsidies for dairy, meat & fishing would help a lot.
>> The only sane and ethical response to this devastation is to completely reject the economic exploitation of animals - to adopt a fully vegan philosophy
> I think you might be getting too much of that "greenwashed" propaganda yourself
If you don't see the logic in it, then you just haven't found the power to really acknowledge all the problems associated with it.
>>Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total.
That sounds very different to "There is no such thing as sustainable animal agriculture - it is a lie used to greenwash products"
>>Removing all subsidies for dairy, meat & fishing would help a lot.
I agree.
>>If you don't see the logic in it, then you just haven't found the power to really acknowledge all the problems associated with it.
I absolutely do see the logic in it, but someone saying that the only way to solve this is by going vegan is no different than someone saying that the only way to solve global warming is to stop driving cars. Would that solve the problem? Of course it would. Are the chances of that happening greater than 0? No, they aren't. This isn't personal criticism of course - if you feel that going vegan is consistent with your logical and moral stance, please go ahead. But I don't think we should even pretend that veganism is the solution to this problem on a global scale, because I don't believe you would get anywhere near the required number of people on board with it. The steps that I think are far more realistic are - more sustainable animal husbandry, sharp rise in cost of meat to reflect its true cost(which will naturally reduce the amount of meat consumed), and yes, like you said - removal of artificial subsidies to those industries.
> the only way to solve global warming is to stop driving cars. Would that solve the problem? Of course it would
No it would not. We have to do many things to solve it, not just one thing or another.
And nobody argues that we should stop eating ... that would equal stopping driving. But as we can drive electric instead, we can also eat something else than animals.
We already get majority of calories out of plants ... animals supply only 18% of calories and 37% proteins (https://ourworldindata.org/land-use).
>> Sustainable animal husbandry represents less than 5% of the total.
Mea culpa. That max 5% is non-industrial farming. How big part of it is sustainable i do not know.
Nearly 100% of my meat comes from locally raised grass-fed-and-finished cows. They are rotationally grazed and live their whole lives in the outdoors. It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket - ground beef is half the price, steaks are as little as 10%, because all cuts are priced the same. (My dairy comes from another, similar farm, and while it is much better, it is more expensive.) I also went all through the slaughterhouse and no, there's no kids there.
I eat a lot of eggs. 100% of my eggs and the occasional chicken come from my parents, who, with twelve chickens, produce an insane surplus of eggs, letting them eat whatever bugs they find and feeding them scraps.
People will argue this isn't scalable, and maybe it isn't. But the price of my beef suggests it is underutilized at this time. Certainly more rural and semirural people could keep chickens. I would favor this alternative anyway, since industrial-scale food production isn't just inhumane, it produces inferior products that are subject to enormous risks and shocks as producers race to centralize and become more and more efficient. You don't want hyperefficiency in your food supply. Hyperefficiency means fragility.
Massive industrialized agriculture is its own ecological disaster. The farming of corn for ethanol (!!!) and the massive, endless fields of soybeans and canola in the US midwest (foods eaten by almost no American a few decades ago) are permanently destroying the ecology of nearly half the US. It's annihilating topsoil at alarming rates, eradicated huge swaths of natural wildlife, and filled watersheds with massive amounts of fertilizer and pesticides which are then contributing to killing all the fish. You see how we've come full circle.
Do you know what would be great and sustainable for the midwest? Fill the plains with cows. For thousands of years, they were filled with ruminants. The cows must be kept in tightly packed herds to emulate their behavior when predators are present. This will regenerate the topsoil, as that's what formed much of it in the first place, and end the flow of poison into the waterways. I'm not opposed to returning the buffalo instead, if you prefer.
You talk about greenwashing - that's a big part of the push behind veganism. Obviously there's sincere people like you, but there's a lot of money in producing highly processed foods and (soon) artificial meat. Highly processed foods (besides being a health disaster) can be easily produced via "food science" from relatively stable, controllable inputs, which animals are not. They are much easier to scale, which is where the real money comes from when you're selling commodities. Frequently, even when one input does become a problem, it can be replaced with no obvious impact to the consumer.
It's not about taking a holistic look what what we need to do ecologically and environmentally, which would include meat. It's about cash.
> fated to death from birth
Everything born into this world will die. That's nothing special about livestock.
> It is actually much, much cheaper than buying meat from a supermarket
Thanks to subsidies ... taxes taken also from vegans ;)
> the massive, endless fields of soybeans
"More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils. Just 7% of soy is used directly for human food products such as tofu, soy milk, edamame beans, and tempeh"
> Fill the plains with cows. For thousands of years, they were filled with ruminants
You need also predators ... and I don't mean weekend hunters. Without predators the ruminants tend to stay in one place and eat everything, till nothing than desert remains. See Sahara and near east.
> there's a lot of money in producing highly processed foods and (soon) artificial meat
Not yet, and artificial meat may not be here in next few decades (the scale is the problem). Soon is an overstretch. Artificial meat doesn't need to be highly processed ... in principle it's just plant protein (flour), starches, colorings (red beet etc.) and spices, maybe oils and vitamines. No magic, no complicated processes involving toxic chemicals etc (depends on the oils, tho).
> holistic look what what we need to do ecologically and environmentally, which would include meat
Meat is not necessary in those equations. We don't need to eat meat to live and prosper. We have composting and syntropic agriculture. We don't need animal inputs in agriculture. We can rewild areas used for animal farming (75% of 50% agriland of habitable land) and let the wildife rebound and manage the ecosystems. We can restore carbon sinks (double the forests) and stop anthropogenic wild life die offs. We don't have to rape the nature as we do now. For that the vegan movement is the logic outcome.
Sorry, your first link is profoundly unpersuasive. I don’t see anything wrong with killing animals for a purpose, nor anything inherently evil in suffering. I appreciate that you have a different value system, but I don’t share it. I do have a problem with treating animals as commodities and as inputs to industrial processes.
> Thanks to subsidies ...
Incorrect.
> "More than three-quarters (77%) of global soy is fed to livestock for meat and dairy production. Most of the rest is used for biofuels, industry or vegetable oils.
I think it’s clear I oppose growing soy for animal feed. At any rate it’s misleading to exclude vegetable oil as something people directly eat, when nearly every American consumes a huge proportion of their daily calories from soy and canola oils.
> You need also predators ... and I don't mean weekend hunters. Without predators the ruminants tend to stay in one place
Yes, I specifically mentioned the need for rotational grazing, which builds up topsoil and stops desertification.
> We don't need to eat meat to live and prosper. We have composting and syntropic agriculture. We don't need animal inputs in agriculture. We can rewild areas used for animal farming (75% of 50% agriland of habitable land) and let the wildife rebound and manage the ecosystems.
I disagree. I and many other people need meat to prosper.
Ecosystems are not steady state without our inputs. And certainly nobody besides me is going to support the mass reintroduction of predators. What you’re describing is just a different kind of human managed ecology.
Also, properly managed livestock can absolutely be a carbon sink.
With your last video, you’re preaching to the choir. It’s still true we all die.
