If a newspaper publishes a false story about a business and someone takes it upon themselves to attack the business, it's partially the newspaper's fault.
If a newspaper publishes a story about a business and someone takes it upon themselves to attack the business, the attacker is at fault, regardless of the veracity of the newspapers claims.
I am in Canada, but I think it is the same in the US? A newspaper can be responsible here. For example, if they say "people should riot" and a riot happens, the newspaper could be responsible for all actions that resulted the same as if they were the ones doing the crime.
Same with if they become aware of defamation and fail to retract and make a statement. But newspapers will generally also thoroughly investigate themselves to make sure what they are publishing is true.
It is not the same in the U.S. (And, to be honest, I'm quite doubtful this is true in Canada, though I could be persuaded through legal citations that it is.)
"Under the Criminal Code of Canada (Section 21), you can be charged as a "party" to an offence if you were involved in planning, "encouraging", or aiding in its commission" Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)
"21(1) Parties to Offence: Anyone who actually commits the offense, aids in committing it, or abets (encourages) someone in committing it is a party to the offense."
I work in a law firm but NAL. I could probably find some cases if I had time. Most of the responses from people saying defamation is not very successful and "good luck" in the us because of 1A seem strange to me also.
Whom are you quoting here? Looks a lot like LLM slop.
I’m not sure you got the law right. “Abetting” does not mean encouragement. And the code itself does not have “(encourages)” in parentheses in it. The text of the code is right here: https://www.statutes.ca/r-s-c-1985-c-c-46/21
Since you work in a law firm, maybe you should ask your colleagues.
1
: to actively second and encourage (something, such as an activity or plan)
abet the commission of a crime
2
: to assist or support (someone) in the achievement of a purpose
The singer was abetted by a skillful accompanist.
especially : to assist, encourage, instigate, or support with criminal intent in attempting or carrying out a crime —often used in the phrase aid and abet
accused of aiding and abetting a criminal
Who Is Considered a Party to an Offence?
Under s. 21(1) of the Criminal Code, you may be considered a party to an offence if you:
Section 21(1)(a) Committed the crime yourself (the principal);
Section 21(1)(b) Assisted someone else in committing it (aided);
Section 21(1)(c) Encouraged or promoted its commission (abetted).
> I added the quotes, it clearly was not taken directly word for word and it was written in plain English for clarity.
You mean you had an LLM write it. This is the second time you’ve done that in this conversation. Please stop. It’s giving you incorrect or misleading information. Bona fide lawyers are finding themselves subject to disciplinary action for relying on LLMs, which have been found to falsify law and cases: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-appeals-court-or...
Please, I beg you, go talk to
your colleagues instead of armchair lawyering here. The law does not always adhere to dictionary definitions. It has been interpreted over the centuries and courts follow those interpretations. Besides, “Encourages” is a different word than “abets,” and merely offering support in the verbal or spiritual sense is very unlikely to lead to prosecution and conviction. If you can find a single case in Canada where this has happened, show us the proof.
I’m not “trolling,” I am a lawyer myself with 3 years of formal training, a Bar license, and decades of continuing education.
If you give me the number of your law firm, I will gladly call them myself.
The words in your link do not support the words in your comment. Don't be snarky unless you are certain you're correct.
> a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the reputation of the person or entity who is the subject of the statement.
They falsely marked the site unsafe[1] on a published list[2], the results weren't checked and couldn't be appealed[3] and OPs site was taken down[4].
"When Google marks a site as "unsafe" or "dangerous" in Chrome or search results, it is a factual finding based on automated detection of specific, technical security threats, rather than a subjective opinion. These warnings are triggered by Google’s Safe Browsing technology, which scans billions of URLs daily to protect users from malicious content"
Opinions and facts in a legal context usually comes down to who is saying what. Someone personally says "this soup is bad" on a review site = opinion. A news site plastering it on their front page = fact.
A person saying something as an individual is usually considered an opinion. A company doesn't have that same protection.
> "When Google marks a site as "unsafe" or "dangerous" in Chrome or search results, it is a factual finding based on automated detection of specific, technical security threats, rather than a subjective opinion. These warnings are triggered by Google’s Safe Browsing technology, which scans billions of URLs daily to protect users from malicious content"
Nope. Not correct. Companies have the same 1A rights, too.
In the US, it really doesn't matter who says it, the only thing that matters is who it's being said about.
If you are a "public figure" -- which is a much broader category in 1A law than you think -- then in order to prove defamation, you have to prove the thing was false _and_ that the person saying it knew it was false at the time. Not that they were mistaken, not that they were careless, not that they knew later, they deliberately lied and knew they lied as they said it.
If your next question is "how do you prove what someone was thinking", then yes. That is the reason it's nearly impossible.
Not talking about 1A rights or public figures. We are talking about
Opinions (Protected) vs Facts (Not Protected)
Defamation cases where individuals say something are usually considered opinions and companies are usually considered facts in the eyes of the courts. I say "Usually"
Defamation also DOES NOT require intent, but it requires a minimum level of fault (negligence)
Google saying something is unsafe in the web search or browser would not be considered an opinion because of their position of authority. It would not even be a debate since Google has already said they make decisions based on facts and data presented to them.
The only question is are they negligent in their assessment or response to a false report. And what would be the damages. In the case of a phishing report that is false courts would already consider it defamation per se (damages presumed)
We are absolutely talking about the 1A lol. Defamation is 1A law. It is one of the few recognized exceptions to the 1A.
And we are also 100% talking about public figures. "Public figures" include companies and it's a critical part of 1A since Times v Sullivan.
Google is a US company and has 1A rights. That's how it works. The rest of what you said is nonsense and is your idea of how it should work, but has nothing to do with how it actually works.
To be more accurate, defamation is civil tort law, circumscribed by the First Amendment. (Defamation as a cause of action is quite old, reaching back to our English common law roots, and goes back further in history, I believe.)
Seems like a lack of creativity, plus painting themselves into a corner by promising unlocked bootloaders.
Samsung owns SmartThings, a smart home platform. They could've come up with a suite of apps for turning your phone into a SmartThings-connected camera, or motion detector, or remote control, or button panel, or a dashboard, etc. Either charge a little for the apps, or trust that sucking people into the SmartThings ecosystem will cause them to buy hubs and other devices.
Users might be more willing to upgrade their phone if they can turn the old one into a baby monitor vs getting scammed on a trade-in or letting it sit in a drawer.
Wouldn't work very well as a phone though. The networks a 2012 phone support no longer exist. 2G and 3G are both fully shut down where I live. Even if you specifically got a 4G phone from 2012 it might not support VoLTE, so you'd be unable to make calls.
As a wifi internet device it would work but I'm not sure that's what OP is going for.
I worked at a company that had effectively no physical security during work hours until the second time someone came in during lunch and stole an armload of laptops.
Then we got card readers and a staffed front desk, and discovered our snack budget was too high because people from other companies on other floors were coming to ours for snacks too.
I never felt the office was insecure, except in retrospect once it was actually secure.
I once lived in Singapore for a while and we were all sure that nobody would steal anything anyway, so we just never bothered to lock the doors. (That was also very helpful if you wanted to stop for a quick coffee with a date in the middle of the night.) You could see the MacBooks from the street, but nothing ever went missing. I don’t know what exactly it was, but Singapore felt incredibly safe and crime-free.
I used to accumulate a pile of change on my desk from buying coffees.
Never got touched across about a hundred different offices around Australia (I’m a consultant).
Except once: the pile was replaced by a $50 note and a hand written apology saying the guilty party needed change for the parking lot machine. I had less than $30 there in coins so… profit!
I had mine stolen from my desk, way back when i had a job at a state company. I used to keep it inside a small metal can (i guess i just enjoyed the rattling sound it made). Thing is, I also kept a desk drawer key inside the can, so the thief also got my key.
There was video.
I had to have the desk drawer changed (which made for quite a spectacle in an open plan office).
It's not actually the extreme punishments, it's the consistent small punishments. It's that you'll actually, seriously get a ticket for littering, even if it's a relatively small ticket. The "Fine City" enforces it's vision in a ubiquitous way, so people just don't break the rules.
This seems like the most effective solution. Imagine if you knew that if you littered, there is a 100% chance you would get a $10 fine immediately. Almost no one would litter ever again, even though the fine is much smaller than the fine is in most countries.
Problem is it just takes a lot of resources to police, more than the fine revenue. But with CCTV and computer vision it's getting increasingly cheap.
Unfortunately, the US and many other countries have chosen the other path (sporadic enforcement with severe punishment) largely because it's easier to implement. There's a lot of momentum to change this but it's politically difficult at least in America.
I think that barrier may be weakening. I reckon that the people most concerned about crime are willing to sacrifice their privacy and defer to their government to prevent crime.
But I think the shenanigans of ICE are making people more aware of the importance of privacy. Look at the backlash Ring (lost dog superbowl ad) and Discord (age verification) and Nest (Guthrie case) received just this year.
The people I have in mind are the rich, poor and those who fantasize becoming wealthy and fear going broke. I’m uncertain how much these demographics account for the US population and empirically speaking I’m unsure of the gravity of the PR stirs you named. I really don’t know if privacy is the foremost concern when the types of people I’m thinking of consider ICE either.
It really seems to boil down to whether these types of people can be effectively sold on the virtue of tearing down the barriers of privacy and government. If they aren’t already implicitly sold to that then all it takes is for the powers that be to do a better job at marketing their initiative.
My city semi-recently introduced a citywide parking system. They have hired plenty of inspectors and there is like 95% chance you will get a ticket if you don't pay for the parking.
> It's not actually the extreme punishments, it's the consistent small punishments.
Not just the consistent small punishments, but the painful punishments. Pain is an extremely good, human motivator. Why destroy someones life and spend valuable taxpayer money with a 10 year imprisonment, when a rigorous caning session will be 10x more effective ? Many criminals will loudly thump their chest if punishment is merely jail but will dance on eggs to avoid buttock-pain.
Singapore recently introduced 24 strokes for scamming and fraud.
Even Masochists have a limit to Pain Tolerance. Unless you are talking about 1-in-a-billion "Ironman" guy with dead nerves or someone totally drugged, the overwhelming majority of human beings cannot last beyond the 10th stroke at the maximum without begging for mercy.
Singapore's judicial caning officers (jokingly called "commandos") are trained to deliver strokes in a way that inflicts MAXIMUM pain while staying within strict procedural limits to avoid permanent injury.
Officers undergo specific training on posture, swing technique, accurate aiming, and using full body weight to generate high force and speed, up to around 160 km/h at impact, with forces exceeding 800–900 Newtons.
"Strokes are precisely placed to avoid criss-crossing (creating a neat "ladder" pattern) and to ensure consistency and full effect rather than randomness."
The explicit goal of the technique is to maximize pain per stroke: they are trained to induce as much pain as possible with each blow.
There are several examples of criminals who had multiple arrests and jail sentences, but after their first and last caning session quit criminal life and turned over a new leaf.
Caning is really extreme. I watch a documentary on it. Punished person would avoid going to toilet (#2) for days because of how painful it is. They would not eat anything to prevent #2.
Yes, but it's a difficult equilibrium to reach. It's easy to ticket 100% of littering if not many people are doing it.
There is another side to this, which is that the police need to not hassle people who are not committing crime. Which is why you'd struggle to adopt this anywhere in America.
I spent a few days in Singapore, long ago. I felt slightly anxious, but mostly because I wasn't familiar with the rules. I'm confident that, if I spent a year or two there, I would quickly become far less anxious than in other places--because the rules are so clear and consistently enforced. The less of a judgement call is involved, the less there is to be uncertain about.
Think about it: Is it better to have a posted speed limit of 65mph and a real speed limit of 75mph, and you just have to learn from experience where the real limit is? Or is it better to post 75mph and fine any driver as soon as they exceed it?
The point of poster a lower speed limit than what is applied is because both the sensors used by the police and in your card are inaccurate and it's unreasonable to constantly fine people who thought (and perhaps even were) within the limit.
And this applies to most other laws too - we can't expect everyone to know all the edge cases so some leniency for honest mistakes is needed.
The residents of Singapore I've known seemed at ease in public. The rules really aren't that unreasonable. How much littering do you do annually? I would guess the annual litter count of my friends averages around zero.
Press freedom is limited in Singapore and that is a significant problem for its democracy. As a tourist this is unlikely to impact you. Otherwise, rule of law is paramount in Singapore.
Surely the entirety of the law is encapsulated in your comment. Certainly you won't get in trouble for carrying something as innocuous as an empty vape cartridge. You won't get fined for crossing the road in the wrong place, absolutely.
Singapore is just an example. Its more invasive big brother can be found just north of it.
So what are the failings? A quick skim through the Wikipedia article found plenty of criticism, but all the evidence I could find in my quick skim was in support of the theory. It's very likely I missed something in my skim; could you point to a specific section of the article where the evidence against the theory is presented?
I would be surprised if we ever got evidence against the broken windows theory, simply due to crime in general being a (wicked problem)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem].
> The extreme punishments for breaking the law might have something to do with it.
Historically speaking, this is almost never true. People constantly think the solution is crueler punishments and we have hundreds of years of records of what happens.
People who commit crimes generally do not think they will be caught and therefore the punishment is of no concern to them. The better way to deter crime[1] is to convince more of the public that people who commit crimes are usually caught. Preferably by actually catching people who commit crimes.
1. aside from the obviously effective but difficult to implement deterrent of meeting everyone's physical needs
A lot of crimes are also committed by people who genuinely don't think about the consequences when they are acting. It doesn't matter how bad or how certain the consequence is, because they aren't thinking about it at all.
But apparently there are far fewer such people in Singapore. How would you explain this?
I think the explanation is that growing up in an environment where even small infringements are consistently punished makes people think about the consequences more.
This is exactly right. People who get away with some rule-breaking, whether it's large or small, once will start to think maybe they can get away with it a second time. Get away with it a dozen times and you start to think you can get away with it every time, leading to the "people who genuinely don't think about the consequences when they are acting" that cortesoft mentioned. That sort of behavior isn't just a facet of personality, it's trained (or it might be more accurate to say, it wasn't trained out of them — all children act on impulse, it's the nature of children, but if their parents consistently punish them for sneaking cookies out of the cookie jar and they never get away with it, they eventually learn not to do it in the first place and to think about the consequences before they act).
So when a lot of people grow up in an environment where small rulebreakings are consistently caught and punished (the former is more important, can't punish what isn't detected), they learn from an early age that rulebreaking carries consequences nearly every time, and you end up with far fewer people willing to break the rules.
This is just... wildly vague. People break rules for all sorts of reasons, ignorance, desperation, mental impairment, sometimes just plain maliciousness or greed.
It's one thing to discuss something like a school campus with a small cohort of relatively similar wants and needs and a relatively small set of rules, it becomes much more complicated when dealing with the entire society's interaction with laws.
I don't think that is a significant proportion of crime, though it certainly exists. Most crime is organized (theft, pickpocketing, robbery, kidnappings, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, racketeering), or it exists in an atmosphere of impunity, where there is a baseline assumption of no consequences (Epstein files, rape culture in certain industries).
> People who commit crimes generally do not think they will be caught and therefore the punishment is of no concern to them.
The mere possibility of severe butt-pain keeps all the would-be criminals in line.
I can definitely get away with it, but just in case I cannot - it's not a mere jail holiday that I face as consequence - I wont be able to even sit down without screaming like a baby -> The foolish criminal becomes wise and the hardened criminal becomes enlightened with this fundamental realization.
The Possibility of Pulverizing Pain via the Holy Cane is the Divine Motivation to Obey the Law.
"Hundreds of years of records" sounds like a big exaggeration. I don't think we can reliable talk about more than 150 years, and even that would be sparse, covering only some lucky countries. And this data is hard to evaluate as adjusting it to culture shifts, economy changes, and even to what constitutes "cruel" in different periods isn't easy.
I think, it's reasonable to suspect that demonstrative cruelty in crime punishment may have bad side-effects in the long run, but there are just a few cases in recent history where at least short-term outcomes seem to support the claim that it may reduce crime levels.
As someone who's lived there, it's definitely more about the consistency. Generally speaking, if you make a police report, it will be investigated. This includes for smaller issues like lost items too. From what I understand, their courts also give fairly consistent sentences.
Combine this with the fact that Singapore is small and full of security cameras, and it create a situation where breaking the law carries a decent risk of getting caught as police will have the willingness and resources to investigate.
On top of this, a massive proportion of the population are there on work visas. For these people, any sort of crime or bad behaviour would mean deportation and loss of their job.
I would say it's the carrot and stick play, they're really good at it. Outsiders/foreigners only hear the things about fines and caning and the death sentence and no chewing gum. But they don't see the carrot part. For example they give conscripts something like a 401k top up and some other benefits to attend their reservist trainings. Of course if you don't turn up it's probably jail or some shit. They also pay them to keep in shape through PT exams, and they also reimburse your salary for the time taken. Conversely if you don't turn up there's a fine or some tedious make up sessions.
I think social norms have a lot to do with it. It's like the actual social costs of being the one who broke the social trust is so high it dissuades people.
It worked for me on a lower level. Everyone cut queues and will grab an empty seat if it looks available at a packed restaurant here so I do it too but I never did that when I lived in Singapore because I knew that's not how things work there and people would genuinely be mad at me for doing it.
It's like a self-fulfilling, self-improving environment. Same with Japan and cleanliness.
State provided housing for most and a booming economy with low unemployment must help too.
I once worked at a place where the receptionist held the door open for a thief who made off with about 10 PCs, taken from random work desks near the entrance.
She thought that because he was wearing a suit and a badge from his "company" that he must have been supposed to be there, and assumed he was probably taking the computers away to be fixed.
There was surprisingly little repercussion for violating the "one card one person" door policy and by someone whose job it was to know which visitors would be on-site on any given day, and so should have known that this guy wasn't supposed to be there.
> There was surprisingly little repercussion for violating the "one card one person" door policy
Presumably because "everyone" knows that "noone" complies with those policies, in part because it's socially awkward to e.g. close the door on someone who tries to tailgate, and so it needs to be heavily and consistently enforced before it becomes more socially unacceptable to be the person who potentially puts their colleagues at risk of disciplinary actions than to be the person who tells someone they need to swipe.
I once worked for a company that had a bad habit of not announcing employee departures (for both firing or quitting). At one point they let the VP of sales go and told practically no one. It came out that he was no longer with the company in an All Company meeting, not even on purpose. Someone asked “Where is X?” and the CEO was like “they are no longer with the company”.
After that I lobbied, successfully but not easily, to have them send out an email that just said “X is no longer with the company” regardless of how/why they left.
The “winning” argument was that if that VP had emailed me (or probably any of the developers) and asked for an export of data (our client list, stats, etc) we would have sent it to him. Probably even with him reaching out from a personal email address or via sms. What IC is going to tell a VP to “follow procedure”? Same deal with if he had followed me to the keycard door and told me he forgot his key card. No one is going to thank the IC who tells the VP they can’t let them in.
When I began work at my last company, we all had to badge in to get in the parking lot, where there was 6 lanes 6-10a and just 2 other times. We also had to pass through 1 of 4 turnstyles, and we were subject to bag inspection going both in and out. We were trained to NEVER leave my badge in an unguarded location (ie my locked car at home, at lunch, etc). We were also trained to NOT display our badges off campus, especially when travelling.
This made me make DAMN SURE I knew where my badge was at at times. Same hook in the closet. When walking OUT through the turnstyle, I usually either put it in my bag if I had one, tucked into my shirt pocket, or just tucked under my shirt.
Twitch had badged entry and still managed to have a couple of incidents in which people walked in off the street to steal laptops. No snack theft though, thankfully some things are sacred.
What year was that? I was at a startup from 2010 onward and I'm pretty sure we had physical keys until about twelve people and after that it was straight to badges. There was never a time where you could just walk in.
Late 2010s. We actually did have badges but the doors were only locked outside work hours, so nobody carried them.
The thief had to walk past a security desk in the lobby, take the elevator up to our floor, walk past a front desk to the kitchen, then open a door to get to the office area. Probably sounded like enough layers for whoever was in charge of security at the time, but both desks were frequently unoccupied during lunch.
I know we had cameras too, but I never got updates on the investigation. I suspect it was an employee at one of the other companies in our building.
Interesting. I feel like most places still make you badge into the doors during business hours, and even specifically encourage not permitting tailgating, sometimes tied to a purported safety concern around being able to know who is in the building in an emergency... though honestly at most shops I bet no one has any idea how to get a report like "everyone who has badged in in since 6am this morning".
There's a huge difference between a company with its own building, and a company that shares a building in some way with other companies.
Many I've seen have it setup so that if you get past the security guard at the lobby, you effectively had full reign of the entire building, including many companies that wouldn't lock the doors or common areas.
In the early 2000's I worked at a company where our IT section was in its own building with only about 18-24 or so people spread out over three mostly open plan areas between development, testing and infrastructure.
Even so we still had an incident where two guys walked in and just collected a few laptops before making their escape.
We like to think that we are hyper-vigilant and intelligent as human beings, but in general we tend to just focus on what is in front of us most of the time. We assume that when things are happening that they must be ordinary, or else why would they be happening?
~400 person company spread across a few floors, but only one kitchen. It wasn't weird for people you didn't recognize to come off the elevator and get snacks to take back to their floor.
I worked somewhere with a few hundred employees across 3 floors. If someone wearing business casual walked onto our floor I would have no idea if they worked for us or not.
I work at a company of ~200 people and I already don't recognize everyone. Seeing an unknown face, I just assume they are from some distant team that I never had to interact with, say hi and move on.
Another aspect besides not recognizing everyone from your company is like this- even if someone knows for sure that a person from a different company is helping themselves to snacks, people are may avoid pointing it out. People may prefer to avoid conflicts or make someone else look bad. They are more likely to act if they see someone stealing from their desk, home, etc. That's kind of their domain.
Also, a few other things may also be there- people won't make noise if someone steals snack packets, but they may make noise if someone steals laptops.
Also, if one person steals it may get pointed out more than if a lot of people steal- where stealing is culture, etc.
Feels like every time I drop by the office there's 2-3 new faces I've never seen before.
People I know seems to not take issue with them being there, so I'm sure it's probably fine. Fine enough for it not to be my issue to deal with in any case.
If a company made a car that could be driving itself generating revenue around the clock, they'd have to charge a pretty high price to justify selling it to you.
I know this sounds dystopian to some, but car ownership is a burden and I'm looking forward to a world where I can make an unoccupied car show up with my phone when I need it, and completely forget about it when I don't.
For the smoking analogy to fit, you'd have to have parents giving their children packs of cigarettes to play with and then being mad at Marlboro they figured out how to smoke them.
This is a ridiculous mindset. Llama 3.1 8B can do lots of things today and it'll still be able to do those things tomorrow.
If you baked one of these into a smart speaker that could call tools to control lights and play music, it will still be able to do that when Llama 4 or 5 or 6 comes out.
The point is that the GP's mindset is not very ridiculous if you value things by a price/utility ratio. Software and hardware advancements will lead to buyer's remorse faster than people get an ROI from local inference.
SW and HW advancements will bring this topic in the "good enough for vast majority" field, thus making GP point moot. You don't care if your LLM ASIC chip is not the latest one because it works for the use you purchased it for.
The highly dynamical nature of LLM itself will make part of the advantage of upgradable software not that interesting anymorw. [1]
[1] although security might be a big enough reason for upgrades to still be required
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