Isn't it a bit early to draw such conclusions ?
We are just getting started with AI use, especially in tech / engineering teams, and have only scratched the surface with regards to what is possible.
This is highly misleadling. Nobody is setting the price, it is determined by an open market. This naturally drives it towards the price of the cheapest energy source with available capacity (often natural gas). It would be irrational to sell electricity for cheaper than this. If more batteries get deployed, the price will more often get set by battery storage instead.
> In this model, the price of electricity is set by the most expensive source needed to meet demand at any given time. Often, this is gas-fired power plants. Even if cheaper renewable sources like wind and solar are supplying a significant portion of electricity, the overall market price is influenced by the cost of gas.
If you don't cover 100% of the current power usage from batteries, the price will be price of gas plants.
The gas plants could be 1% of given moment, yet still set price
It's not like the price is set for the whole year, though. The price is set each half-hour, so it does matter what percentage of the time the gas peaker plants are necessary to supply the grid. This makes the effect of renewables on prices quite nonlinear: if they can never supply 100% of the grid, then they have zero effect on the average wholesale price. But going from 0% to 99% is a large part of the hurdle, then the transition from 99% to 105% will have a very large effect on the pricing (of course, given the variable nature of renewables, this will get blurred a bit more: currently the UK grid is entirely renewables about 1% of the time. But doubling the renewable capacity will raise that percentage to a lot more than 2%).
> The gas plants could be 1% of given moment, yet still set price
Makes sense. Since no one would build that last 1% (or then, last 10%) of needed capacity due to it being wildly unprofitable. Then you are dealing with rolling blackouts or even worse.
The cost of a watt is not fungible. Reliable electricity is worth many multiples more than an unreliable grid no one can rely on being there when they need it.
This is a very sensible way to structure an electricity market. It’s got to be set at the marginal price, otherwise you mess up incentives of cheaper producers.
Sure, it's a marginal price. It is surprising to me that HN struggles to understand marginal pricing, it makes me more likely to assume when I see such people unhappy with taxation that they probably also don't understand marginal taxation.
Marginal differences have a cliff effect, which is one of the things US Republicans are worried about in the event Trump isn't able to subvert or abolish entirely this year's elections. If you've gerrymandered every seat so that you'll win by 3-5% and then your support collapses 10% across the board then you lose all those seats, not 10% of them. Ouch.
For that 1% in reality it's probably not quite the case, my understanding is that most of the gas plants pay a significant price in terms of efficiency loss and wear on the turbine, for restarts, so e.g. make 10MW for an hour, switch off for an hour, then make 10MW for an hour is 20MWh produced, but incurred a stop-start. The 20MWh might equate to £1000 of gas burned, but the stop-start has an effective price of £500. So you need to charge £75 per MWh to break even. Or, you could sell for £60 per MWh, deliver 10MWh for all three hours, 30MWh, £1500 of gas burned, no stop-start overhead, your overall costs were the same but you got more profit because 30 x £60 = £1800 instead of 20 x £75 = £1500.
Very true about the Republicans. In the special elections since the general we have seen shifts of this level. Unfortunately, I strongly suspect subvert is what's going to happen.
That is exactly what I wrote. Gas plants being at 1% implies that there is no cheaper source with available capacity. Why should anyone sell electricity for less then?
So if I offer my services providing electricity through a bicycle transformer for the cheap cheap price of $1000 per kWh does that mean everyone has to pay that price.
Every 30 mins the UK energy suppliers put in a bid for how much energy they can produce and what price they will do it for. The UK then selects the cheapest N companies to fufill the predicted energy demand. Each company selected is then paid the price of the most expensive supplier chosen which is usually gas.This is a simplification of what the Octopus Energy CEO explains in the link below starts ~1:40.
No. The operative word there is "required". The grid sorts the various providers cheapest to most expensive, then uses all the power from each until they don't need the power anymore, at which point they pay everyone who they did take power from the rate of the highest winning bidder.
If you were offering power at $1000/kWh, you would simply lose the auction.
Imagine the scenario where Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Daniel are each selling power at $1/kWh, $2, $3, and $4 respectively. We need 30 kW of power.
Alice bids 10 kW at $1/kWh. We draw power from her, but we still need 20 kW
Bob bids 15 kW at $2/kWh. We draw power from him, but we still need 5 kW.
Charlie bids 30 kW at $3/kWh. We draw 5 kW from him. We don't need any more power, so Charlie has set the price at $3/kWh
Over the next hour, Alice gets $30, Bob gets $45, and Charlie gets $15. Daniel gets nothing, because he was out bid.
There is a significant fine to be paid by the non delivering supplier. This still happens and that is why there is also an auction for reserve power. Oversupply is fined even higher as that is also bad for grid stability.
Think about this like a market. Suppose yes, there is demand for your power at $1000/kwh.
What is the market pressure here? Suddenly a ton of new capacity in solar, gas, etc, will come online and drive that price down because there will be much more capacity before you reach the point of $1000/kwh purchases.
The alternative is that people get paid at cost of production, which if you think about it is less fair. Why should a gas turbine get paid $67/kwh and a solar cell or battery get paid less? It also means that the market incentivizes more cheaper energy as a rule, because they take profit.
Would you go to the gas station charging $2 above market price just because their costs are higher to produce the gas?
As I understand it (and even if I’m broadly right I’m greatly simplifying) there’s an auction system and if demand is X kilowatts, they line up all the bids to supply in cost order and draw a line at X kilowatts. All successful bidders receive the price bid by the highest successful bidder.
There are rare times in this kind of market where the price does go very high (though not to $1000 per kwh), and those brief periods push average prices up substantially.
In markets where batteries are going gangbusters, they are squashing many of these peaks and thus reducing average prices paid by consumers (though not as much as you’d hope because the majority of retail electricity costs are distribution rather than generation).
It sounds like a crazy system. But wouldn't it also make deploying renewables there wildly profitable? Sunlight is free but you get paid like you burned natural gas.
Renewables are heavily effected by capital costs. So a renewable energy scheme selling at wholesale prices may sometimes be ridiculously profitable. But it will also have higher interest rates that could wipe out that benefit for the developer. The more successful renewable energy is the lower the average wholesale price is likely to be. And the temporary peaks are likely to correlate with times where the weather conditions will reduce renewable output.
All these reasons make CfD's positive for both consumers and developers. The fact that schemes can be developed outside of this just shows how good the technology is.
But with power the final product it's the same, the production method is different.
So it's more like this: I make a product for 5 and sell it for 6. My production facility is maxed, but there is still much demand. So I (or someone else) sets up another factory, making them for 8 and selling for 9 (there is demand enough). Now, will I keep selling at 6? No, my prices will also increase (to maximise my profit), and the final price will be where the demand curve crosses the supply curve.
I am wind, the new one is gass. We both make the same product, we sell at the same price, but I make a larger profit.
Makes sense. But in a normally functioning market, production at 5 will rapidly ramp up to capture the excess profits to be made by selling at 8. Eventually this will drive everyone's prices to 6 and the ones stuck producing at 7 (natural gas) will be driven out of business.
According to this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46982118 there's additional "treasury" (is that the tax authority in the UK?) weirdness that prevents renewables from capturing these profits.
> But in a normally functioning market, production at 5 will rapidly ramp up to capture the excess profits to be made by selling at 8.
Not if your production is effectively random. If your factory produces a product at $5 this week, but next week your production is halved for a few days, someone else needs to step into that market who doesn't have a factory which produces like yours. You don't have any warehouses, and your product is consumed immediately. If there is not enough product for the market at any given 1 minute window of time Really Bad(tm) things happen to society.
You can build all the $5 factories you want, but when they tap into the same source of unreliable inputs then it really doesn't matter there is massively more cheap production than needed when the timing is fortuitous.
Once someone figures out how to build a different type of factory (battery storage) to buffer your good days of output into a warehouse for that $5 or less cost, then those $6 factories will simply go away over time as they can never sell their output on the open market.
The problem is that this is the market that absolutely cannot tolerate lack of supply for even a second or else everything falls apart, and that the goods are instantly consumed on purchase. (minus whatever is bought by entities storing and reselling it I guess)
Treasury is the name for the government's economic ministry, ie the people who "have the money" (except that of course all modern governments run a huge debt) if you're American your equivalent department is also named Treasury.
The UK's tax authority is HMRC, His Majesty's Revenue & Customs.
It takes a lot of time to build electrical generators, so "rapidly" here means what... decades? Years at least. I think wind farms generally you need to do a bunch of paperwork and then if you get an OK (after the paperwork) maybe 3-5 years to build.
The weirdness you're talking about is the other side of the Contracts for Difference subsidising the off shore (and historically onshore too) wind farms. A CfD works like this: You auction off the right to build generation and in the auction people can bid down for the price they'll be paid for say, 10 years of their electricity, this is called the Strike Price. Whatever they sell their electricity for, they always get that strike price. When the sale price was lower, the government is giving you free money - that's why this is obviously a subsidy. But when the sale price was higher the government (effectively the treasury, though actually via a for-purpose government owned company) takes every penny above your strike price, too bad.
This subsidy is cheap for governments because it's about certainty, something they have and which private investors lack. The British government knows it will have tax revenue in 2036, but a private investor would want a fat premium to cover that.
Now, CfDs run out. If you have 10 years of CfD obviously the wind turbine you bought doesn't magically explode after exactly 10 years, maybe maintenance prices get out of hand or the main blades reach end of life in 20 years and so it doesn't last forever, but eventually there's an unsubsidised generator, the situation today though is that there's a lot of very new generation, and so most of it is subsidised.
Another issue is that it makes sense to build off-shore wind farms in particular on the Scottish coast, whereas it didn't make sense to build e.g. coal generation there, so the UK isn't set up to move a huge amount of power made in Scotland to the south where much of it is needed. This results in a situation where there's say 15GW of almost free electricity, but 5GW of it is the far side of a 2GW transit point, you can only have 12GW of that electricity, even though you made 15GW. Fixing this will take years and political will.
UK government departments are slow and hostile to change, so I am skeptical that Palantir being parachuted in, would produce anything more than a CSV file with a few hundred rows in it.
Social media is barely regulated and the New America will likely retaliate if non-American countries regulate it in way required for productive participation of 16 year old children.
Maybe those people are trying to make the point that if the government can, without public scrutiny, declare any organisation as terrorist and then arrest anyone who wears t-shirts mentioning that organisation - then the government has way too much power.
I've seen at least one "job" listing on LinkedIn that was exactly that. I forget the company's name, but once you clicked in, there was obviously no real position, it was simply for them to get data.
